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Jehovah’s Witnesses are the Only Ones that Will be Saved
Submitted by Teeny on July 29, 2012 - 9:33 am 34 Comments
President Richard Nixon may well again pat a lion on the head
I received an email from Joshua McCabe which simply asked if Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that will be saved when Armageddon comes around. I’ll email Joshua the link to this article.
The Watchtower Society has made a name for itself by being presumptuous. I thought I’d take a leaf out of their book and say that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that will be saved when God decides to bring about Armagenocide.
Was that too bold a statement to make? After all, the Watchtower Society have made this claim on their website under the Do they believe that they are the only ones who will be saved? section:
No. Millions that have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before the “great tribulation,” and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21; 25:31.
Okay, I’m not sure the buffoons at Watchtower HQ realised that they weren’t answering the question that they themselves wrote on their own God forsaken (no pun intended) website. So here it is again:
Do they believe that they are the only ones who will be saved?
We’re looking for an answer as to the people that will survive when Armageddon hits, not how many will be resurrected to stand in line and pat the cute lion on the head. In the second sentence, they finally get to the point by saying that “many now living may yet take a stand for truth.” I added the bold and italic element to the word “may” because it was obvious that this was the main trigger word.
Let’s take a look at what the Watchtower Society has said regarding the question if Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that will be saved.
“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” – Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” – Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12
“During the final period of the ‘ancient world’ that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful ‘preacher of righteousness.’ (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.” – Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?” Paragraph 8
“But Jehovah’s servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things.” – Watchtower 2007 Dec. 15 p.14
“But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy.” – Watchtower 1993 Sep. 15 p.22
“Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God’s use in his precious new order”. – Watchtower 1985 Mar. 1 p.14
So let me ask the question one more time – in fact, let me just make a statement - Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that will be saved.
Before I go, I wanted to review the secondary part of the paragraph found on the official Watchtower Society website.
We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully.
For Pete’s sake! Firstly, who is Pete, and secondly, if God looks at the heart, why bother going out on the ministry? If Jehovah can judge everyone’s heart, there’s no point really, is there?
So Joshua, I think I’ve answered your question quite thoroughly – Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that will be saved when Jehovah decides to lovingly wipe out the majority of the human race.
Jehovah's Witnesses are the Only Ones that Will be Saved,5 Comments
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- Maria Rodriguez: Well said! I particularly like number Zero: all the times that they’ve been right. This is a real...
- Sheila: Wow I’m pretty sure you’re heart would be as cold as ice if I could see it in the abyss that...
- Barinthus: Oh as for “using subtitles.” Unfortunately due to how our legal framework is set up, many Deaf...
- Barinthus: A bit late to the party. I’m Deaf and native ASL user. To clarify, the signs used in this video is...
- hannah: The witnesses are an cultic group and an occult.anyone who is controlling and judgemental and they are in the...
[Reply]
Steve Reply:
July 29th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
As for killing you instantly for making one mistake in the “New Order”: This is Jehovah’s “loving arrangement” for “keeping the congregation (then the entire world) clean”. I recently depicted how this will work in my blog post: A Glimpse of Heaven at http://smmcroberts.net/blog/?p=103
[Reply]
Teeny Reply:
July 29th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Sign me up!
[Reply]
B_LO Reply:
August 4th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
[Reply]
Steve Reply:
August 5th, 2012 at 8:36 pm
2. Christianity was not a pure new religion which was later tainted with Paganism. It grew out of Paganism and its belief in the dying and reviving gods of vegetation. THe entire notion of the son of a god (or king) dying for our redemption was taken from the Pagan “mystery religions” by Saul/Paul and then a biography was later built around as people mistook an allegory for literal history. Do some research. I especially recommend Sir James Frazer’s The Golden Bough and his Folklore in the Old Testament.
3. An almighty being would not need anyone’s “help” to judge, least of all those who had no governmental experience and who chose to be “no part of the world”.
4. “Think of all the great people that are gonna come back to life during the 1000 year reign of Christ.”
They won’t know “the truth” of course; it changes daily. All they’ll have is “old light” and would be considered apostates if they taught what they knew. Also, be careful what you wish for: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/?p=38
.
4. If it was “intended for mankind to live on earth” why, according to the laws of physics, will the Sun become a Red Giant in 12 billion years and consumes the Earth? Don’t you claim that it was your God who created the laws of physics?
5. “…when The United Nations does away with all the religions that prostitute themselves to the world governments” Since this is a prophecy of the Watchtower’s then it would be sensible to give it as much credence as the record of their past prophecies warrants: zero.
[Reply]
B_LO Reply:
August 6th, 2012 at 9:20 am
has to say then why even be on this site? sounds like you are
more of a science guy. The Bible & Science actually go hand in
hand. The Bible is supported by science.
I’ll just go down the list. you had 5 points
1. you are correct. if it’s isn’t purposed it isn’t happening. I
don’t know where that came from but ok
2. such a broad subject. religion. it wouldn’t even have the
title “religion” if everyone worshipped the same god, the same
way HE directed them to worship. Jehovah always had witnesses,
before Saul/Paul was even born. Noah, Abraham, etc. they
worshipped God by listening to Him & doing what He told them to
do. religion is a form of worship or as webster dicionary would
put it: the belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
accepted as the creator & governor of the universe. with that
being said, Jehovah’s faithful followers were around before
paganism (Able to name one). they just didn’t have a name yet.
they really didn’t need a name until people started worshipping
false gods, to set them apart from the false worship. the 1st
prophecy recorded was in Genesis 4:15. Satan would bruise
mankind in the heel (sustainable injury), & Jesus will bruise
Satan in the head (fatal injury). right there in the Garden of
Eden Jehovah hinted at the coming Savior, way before paganism
was even a thought. at that point in time, it was already
understood that Jesus would come to earth and redeem mankind by
a ransom sacrifce, a perfect life for a perfect life. therefore,
it cannot be said that Christianity grew from paganism (not 1st
century Christianity). watered down Christianity that share
pagan belief & man-made tradition is not TRUE Christianity. it
shouldn’t be called Christianity at all.
3. The Almighty doesn’t need “help” to judge mankind. He has
however, crowned His only begotten son, King of the Kingdom of
The Heavens. And since the Kingdom Of The Heaven will rule over
mankind, Jesus will be the judge, along with the sealed 144,000.
The 144,000 do not need worldly government experience, because
the seven-headed wild beast, which is symbolic for the world
governments, is in opposition to The Kingdom Of Heaven (Jesus’
government). Heavenly Government (solving all mankinds problems)
versus Worldy Governments (unable to solve makinds problems).
God & Jesus are billions upon billions of times wiser than the
whole world. whose governing experience world you rather have,
the imperfect worlds’ or The Perfect Creators’?
4a. The people of the past know the truth better than people of
the present because they had a Perfect teacher as well as
scripture. If nowadays doctrine seems to change, it’s because
Satan has flooded the world with false info & distractions just
as it was foretold. that is why people have struggled to find
the truth. The Truth? the truth about what? the truth about God.
who He is, how He is, what He has done & what He created, etc.
How He wants to be worshipped. The Truth. confirmation that
Jehovah is The Almighty.
4b. Everything that exist was created. you probably weren’t
present when your car was made, or your shirt, or television,
but you know it didn’t make itself. think of your senses and how
they enable you to enjoy certain aspects of your life. If you
have children, think about how much you love them (your own
creation). The only thing that mankind has done since put on
this earth is build & create. we create because God creates. we
were made in His likeness. we build like they build in the
heavens. at the end of Revelations in The Holy Bible there was a
new heaven & a new earth was seen and the holy city of Jerusalem
had no need for the sun or the moon.
5. it has already been set in motion. Babylon the Great (the
world empire of false religion) has been influencing the world
governments for a very long time and the U.N. sees it as a
problem. the solution: get rid of them. Jehovah’s Witnesses are
no part of the world, no part of the government system, so they
will not be affected the same way as false religion. if you
don’t research anything else, research religious infuence within
the world governments.
Andrew Reply:
August 6th, 2012 at 9:30 am
Your first question is flawed. What has interest in the Bible got to do with sharing experiences about Jehovah’s Witnesses?
The bible and science do not go hand in hand. Evolution and our ape-like ancestors is science. The big bang is science. Genesis says a magic sky daddy created everything in 7 days in the same form they are in today. Stop talking out of your ass.
You’re done. Won’t be replying unless you bring something valuable to the conversation. You sound like someone who has never actually looked at the arguments against his position.
B_LO Reply:
August 6th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Andrew Reply:
August 6th, 2012 at 9:57 am
2. I have a purpose in life, thanks. I am also very happy.
3. People don’t choose what to believe, it is an internal process.
4. I disagreed with the biggest problem in your long comment, to which you only have ‘it does’ as a reply. I showed two good examples of where the bible and science differ. It’s the opening page!
5. You have not provided any reasonable answers. You are making religious assertions with no supporting evidence (which, incidentally, is preaching)
6. I do not believe god exists, therefore I can not fear him.
7. Just because you WANT there to be a bigger purpose to life, that isn’t evidence that god exists. Cancer patients really WANT to not have cancer, but that doesn’t make it go away.
Thanks for passing by.
Steve Reply:
August 6th, 2012 at 2:40 pm
The real question is: what are YOU doing on this site for apostates?
0. Science contradicts the Bible. Please do some research on this rather than trusting the liars who write the Watchtower to do your thinking for you. Here’s a starting point: http://smmcroberts.net/blog/?p=28
1. You missed the point. If “Jehovah does not want any of his children to be destroyed” and “If an almighty being ‘doesn’t want to’ do something then it’s a safe bet that it won’t happen” [which you agree is "correct"] then the inescapable conclusion regarding “Jehovah killing his children” is, to quote you: “it isn’t happening”. This is a simple syllogism: one tool of the skill called “critical thinking”: something I acquired after I left the Watchtower religion.
2. Please show me where in the Bible it says that anyone in the Garden of Eden (population 2 if we discount talking serpents) knew “that Jesus would come to earth and redeem mankind by a ransom sacrifice”. Or just show me the name “Jesus” anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures. Or even just show me anywhere before Paul’s writings where it says that the son of God is going to come to Earth and be sacrificed for our sins “a perfect life for a perfect life”. You can’t, because it doesn’t. And please don’t go running to your Watchtower books looking for quotes about “prefiguring”; that will not be sufficient to back up your claim. Instead, read the books I have suggested and become enlightened on how Christianity is a form of paganism gone awry. The Gnostics even said to the early Christians, “Hey look, you guys are mistaking our allegories for literal history!” But I guess they were too “unlettered” to understand what an allegory was. (Lack of critical thinking skills at play once again.)
3. Your reply completely misses the point again and simply lapses into “witnessing”. You originally said “the 144,000 are the only ones going to Heaven, to help judge (because they know what it is like to be imperfect beings)”. Now you say God and Jesus don’t need their help. Which is it?
4a. You say “The people of the past know the truth better than people of the present”.
What happened to the doctrine of “the light gets brighter”? If Moses is resurrected the first thing he’s going to want to do is sacrifice a goat and murder anyone who lifts up a stick on the Sabbath. David will want to find some Philistines to slaughter, and Joshua some Canaanites. “Bible Students” from the Russell era are going to make a pilgrimage out to the great Pyramid (“the Bible in stone”). Those who died in the Knorr era will want to disfellowship anyone who has had an organ transplant… Do you begin to get the point with these examples?
4b. I told you that the Sun will consume the Earth in 12 billion years when it becomes a Red Giant, putting a damper on your hope of living forever on a paradise Earth.
Your reply was: “Everything that exist was created.”
How you can conceive of this as an answer to my question is beyond me. I’ll assume you could not find an answer in the Watchtower so fell back to “witnessing.”
But in reply to your assertion, let me ask you two questions:
1. Does God exit?
2. Was God created?
If you answer Yes to the first question and No to the second, you’ll need to strike your “reply” above.
5. The U.N. has very limited powers in world governments. Look at how the U.S. ignores being condemned by the U.N. for its war mongering. The U.N. has even less influence on religion. The charter of the U.N.’s Declaration of Human Rights states explicitly in Article 18:
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
It is only the Watchtower that makes the U.N. into a boogeyman with no evidence to back up their assertions. Trust me, the U.N. is not about to attack religion. If the Watchtower says that they will do this, then that’s all the more reason to believe that it will never happen. Can you say “1925″? How about “the generation that witnessed 1914″? With all due respect: Can you say anything the Watchtower doesn’t currently drill into your pitiful head?
B_Low Reply:
August 7th, 2012 at 5:53 pm
1. i don’t know what u are talking about “missed the point”. i got it. u wrote that in response to me writing “Jehovah does not want any of his children to be destroyed”. i don’t want to whip my kids, but i do. tell them no enough times & then it’s time for action. Jehovah doesn’t want to destroy any 1 of us, but He will.
2. Jesus was already around, as he was Gods 1st creation. everything else was created by God, but thru Jesus. when God told the serpent what He told him, it wouldn’t be long before Jesus knew what he had to do. Jesus knew what he had to do long before there any other form of worship existed. and it’s safe to say that Satan also knew what Jesus was gonna do. way before paganism. no doubt in my mind Satan influenced paganism. Satan’s wisdom far exceeds our own also. He can easily trick us because he is smarter than us. no doubt in my mind that this is one of those tricks. I don’t need Watchtower quotes. just common sense. u can easily find Jesus in history without the Bible. so that’s proof that he existed for those who don’t believe. next thing to prove to the non-believer is whether or not his life was like the Bible says it was. i think there is even evidence of him being put to death
3. God can do everything Himself if He wants to. He doesn’t “need” anyone to “help” (since you want to be technical) do anything. 144,000 going up. it’s the way it is. they will judge. consider it a task that has been given to them
4. well, the disciples know better than we today because they had Master Teacher. the Bible doesn’t go into detail about how they will be brought back. just says they will be resurrected. but I’m sure they will all be happy to be alive again or at least shocked. all of those non-believers will now believe in God. & belief in God enables fear of God. God said they will have to know. so they will have to know that He exists & is Almighty, none others like him. even if it’s right before He destroys them
4b the “everything exist…” answer was more toward your question do i think God created the laws of physics. everything that exist, planets, people, laws of physics, whatever, was created by someone. i said that because i got u confused with Andrew, who was posting between our post. but i think i answered by saying “at the end of Revelations in The Holy Bible there was a new heaven & a new earth was seen and the holy city of Jerusalem
had no need for the sun or the moon.” and do i REALLY have to say “everything, except God”. stop being technical. i know that you know that i know God has no beginning. let’s take it seriously. God did design the laws of physics. they didn’t design themselves. the sun according to the laws of physics will become a red giant, unless The Creator of the laws of physics says different
5. the U.N. has more influence than people think. it operates like a world government even though it isn’t. religion has influence on world governments thru politics. Bible prophecy always come true. Watchtower has been wrong about some things, but what denomination of Christianity has given you these prophecies at all. a lot of them still think that Revelations is all literal. and the ones that know better, never give their churchgoers the information. I guess we will just have to wait & see when it comes to the U.N. but what would happen if churches in the U.S. were taxed? that is, if they lost their tax exemption? two things would happen. First, it would be taxable on its taxable income. Second, donors (in our case, those paying tithing, fast offerings, and other offerings that go in the tithing envelope) would no longer be able to deduct their donations in determining their taxable income. how would that change religion? what if this is what the U.N. will influence? religious tax. then what? anyway, the Watchtower hasn’t drilled anything in my head. i’ve probably been in a Kingdom Hall less times than you. i’ve did a lot of bible reading for myself. when all else fails, Bible prophecy will keep your faith in tact. prophecy fulfillment is the proof. we have to wait for that though. If I knew your relation to the Witnesses, as far as what you know about their prophecy, i could better understand you
also (for the other readers), there are people who are not Witnesses, who claim to be Witnesses. there are also Witnesses who never really understood what they were learning, who then left & said “I used to be a Witness”. u know, fakers. they have them in every church. people who pretend to believe just to be apart of that fellowship
Steve Reply:
August 7th, 2012 at 8:02 pm
No, you obviously still don’t get it. If an almighty being doesn’t want to do something it’s not going to do it, period. You may have to do things you don’t want to do, but that’s because you’re not almighty. And please stop whipping your children; that’s child abuse!
I will take pity on you at this point and let you know that you are making a fool of yourself by your posts. This is an apostate site. Everyone here knows everything that you’re pitching already, and it only serves to make us roll our eyes and shake our heads in pity for you and in amazement that we could’ve ever been so removed from reality to have believed what the Watchtower spews out. Except for the lurkers we have all moved far beyond all of that. I was a Bethelite, not a faker. I have written a book about Jehovah’s Witnesses, carefully examining all sides of their doctrine and history. I have also written a verse by verse commentary on the Bible proving to any non-brainwashed individual that it cannot possibly be “God’s word”.
You can’t convince anyone that this garbage is true just by saying “no doubt in my mind”. That’s exactly what Rutherford said about the Ancient Worthies being resurrected in 1925.
Doubt is the beginning of wisdom.
Don’t just parrot what the Watchtower tells you: you owe it to yourself to read other opinions before you can make an informed decision. The WT may tell you that “Jesus is all over history outside of the Bible” but the fact is that no historians at the time he supposedly lived wrote one word about him. That’s a fact you deserve to know if you’re going to dedicate your life to this organization. But it’s not a fact you’ll ever learn by reading WT literature.
Bible prophecy is a fraud. All of the prophecies were either written after the fact, or were obvious or generic enough to be a safe bet. There are also Bible prophecies that failed. It all amounts to nothing. If you’re waiting for the Watchtower prophecies to be fulfilled then you are wasting your life.
You need to open your own eyes; I’ve pried on them long enough.
B_Low Reply:
August 7th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Steve Reply:
August 7th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
B_Low Reply:
August 7th, 2012 at 10:25 pm
1. do you believe in an intelligent creator that cares about us?
if not, do you think that we are just lifeforms that just appear randomly throughout the universe?
2. what are your thoughts on the purpose of our short lives?
3. what are your thoughts on good & evil?
4. do you believe in/ever seen UFO/extraterrestrials?
Steve Reply:
August 7th, 2012 at 11:49 pm
I can’t imagine why you’d be interested in my personal beliefs, but if your curiosity is sincere then contact me via my web-site; we don’t want to further derail Teeny’s blog post. (Click on my name above, then on “Contact Me” at the bottom of my home page.)
Andrew Reply:
August 8th, 2012 at 7:13 am
Steve Reply:
August 8th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
1. “do you believe in an intelligent creator that cares about us?”
No; my life hasn’t been a sheltered one. I have seen too much to allow such a conclusion.
For details on why the god of the Bible cannot exist, please see my free online book: http://smmcroberts.net/religion/god/cge/intro.html
1a. “if not, do you think that we are just lifeforms that just appear randomly throughout the universe?”
Yes.
2. “what are your thoughts on the purpose of our short lives?”
There is no ultimate purpose, but it is up to each of us to create our own purpose in our own short lives. To live life to the fullest requires exercising our sense of empathy so that we can share and contribute to the joy of others and help eliminate suffering.
3. “what are your thoughts on good & evil?”
Good pretty much results when people act empathetically. Evil usually results when people act contrary to their sense of empathy. Patriotism, religion, and other forms of group-think are the primary culprits in getting people to act against their sense of empathy. (Think of: shunning family members; refusing to save their life with medical treatment; hating apostates; disfellowshipping rape victims…)
4. “do you believe in/ever seen UFO/extraterrestrials?”
No. I think there’s a fair chance that life exists elsewhere than on Earth, but not in our immediate vicinity. For over 12 years now the SETI project has been listening for radio-wave patterns (which we would reasonably expect to be emanating from any advanced civilization) but has only heard a silent universe thus far. Radio waves travel at the speed of light: much faster than any physical object ever could. So the incredible distances to where other advanced life-forms might exist precludes any being living long enough to survive the journey. Also, in order to have reached the Earth by now they might have had to start that journey before the Big Bang (or at least before planets had a chance to form and cool and for life to evolve). Which, of course, would make the notion of aliens from outer space visiting us impossible.
No angels, no gods, no ET’s. For all intents and purposes we are on our own, and need to take responsibility for solving our own problems.
Steve Reply:
August 9th, 2012 at 2:30 pm
Having answered your questions, turn-about is fair play: I have some for you (which may, in the end, steer us back to the topic of this blog.)
You explained the Ransom Sacrifice as: “Jesus would come to earth and redeem mankind by a ransom sacrifice, a perfect life for a perfect life”.
As an aside: Shouldn’t it be “TWO perfect lives for TWO perfect lives”? Or at least “a perfect life for two perfect lives?” Otherwise, where’s the ransom sacrifice for women? Or is it just such a paternalistic religion that no one has ever given them a thought?
As a second aside: Adam & Eve were NOT perfect. Having never had a chance to eat from the Tree of Life, they were destined to eventually age and die from the start. You’ll remember that the Bible clearly relates God saying how he had to remove Adam & Eve from the Garden “lest they should eat from the tree and live forever”. Also, at the time of the transgression they didn’t know good from evil. Perfect? Hardly.
The final aside: There’s no justice in taking the life of a person who didn’t commit the crime. Say you had an imbecile brother who stole a piece of fruit because he didn’t know right from wrong. Your brother needed medicine to live, so in punishment for his crime the court took away his medicine so that he died. But after that the court was still not satisfied and cried out for more blood. So they executed YOU for the crime and called it even. Such a court would not be considered a court of justice by anyone but barbarians.
But the main point I want to make, and the question I really want you to answer is this: In order to live forever on Earth you said that the creator of the laws of physics will change the laws of physics. Okay, that’s a reasonable answer within the context of your mindset. But since this requires that God is able to change his own laws, why didn’t he change the law of “a perfect life for a perfect life?” According to the Bible, God’s only-begotten son pleaded with him in the Garden of Gethsemane to spare him if there were any possible way to do so. Why would the son of God make such a request if he knew it was impossible for God to break his own law of “divine justice”? Evidently Jesus really believed God could change his own law, and would do so [since "anything you ask the Father in my name will be granted"] up until the very last when he cried, “My God! My God, why have you forsaken me?” Having read the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus would’ve been familiar with the many occasions in the past where it was related that God had forgiven sins without the shedding of blood. So why not for him: the most important person who ever lived, and the one with the closest relationship with God?
The Watchtower theology contains this major contradiction which is a fatal flaw. If we are to live forever on Earth then God will have to change his law to keep the Sun from becoming a Red Giant and consuming the Earth. But in order to “save us” from death we have to believe in the Ransom Sacrifice which requires that God cannot change his law.
I anticipate the WT reply: “Evidently God can change the laws of physics (as demonstrated by all of the miracles in the Bible) but cannot change the divine law of justice.” To which my reply would be that according to the Bible, God changed the divine law regarding the need for blood to be shed in order to forgive sins in the following instances: Forgiveness via prayer (Num. 14:17-20; Hos. 14:1-4); flour (Lev. 5:11-13); jewelry (Num 31:50); and money (Ex 30:15-16). Not to mention forgiving the Israelites repeatedly “for their father’s sake”.
Thus endeth the lesson, along with the entire basis of the WT religion.
The Witnesses are the only ones who NEED to be saved — from the Watchtower. This site is helping to do just that.
B_Low Reply:
August 10th, 2012 at 11:23 pm
second aside 1st: Adam & Eve were perfect. perfect health; perfect living conditions; everything they needed in life given to them. God never said that they couldn’t eat from the tree of life. they just hadn’t got around to eating from it. Adam was not created with an expiration date. his life then has little to no purpose. live for a short while & die. what does that accomplish? nothing. sorry. death could only enter the world through the disobeying of that 1 law. Death was a choice. at the time of their transgression, they knew that there creator who loved and cared for them said that they would die. who do you trust, someone who gave you everything, shows you that he loves & care for you, or an animal that isn’t supposed to talk, that you just met?
first aside: through one man sin & death entered the world. had Adam not eaten from the tree of knowledge, he could have still produced sinless children, had he been given another woman. perfect Adam sinned yet sinful Adam died. Perfect Jesus never sinned, yet died as if he had sinned. perfect beings don’t die, imperfect beings do. that also goes for the second aside. a perfect life redeemed both man & woman because woman also came from man.
the final aside: Adam was perfect & would have had perfect offspring, but when he sinned, it’s as if he changed his DNA. therefore his offspring from that point forward would have the same death gene. that is, they would all end up dead. & his offspring would now be born with a sense of good & evil. so now you know good & evil & that at some point you will die whether you do good or evil, just because death is in you. imagine Adam had children before eating of the tree of knowledge. only he & the children he birthed after sinning would have that death sentence. but since Adam damned EVERYONE to the grave, there was a need for the countermeasure. there are a lot of things that we today consider justice, yet if you really think about it, is very barbaric. Jesus didn’t have to come if he didn’t want to. he loves mankind just as much as God because he is the most like God.
your main point: “i” “think” there is a few reasons why. one possible reason was to show mankind, even the most the most evil men how much He loved them. ” This is how much I love you all. Here is my only son that i love even more than you, taking the blame for your inherited sin, tortured to death, basically being the fall guy, so that you can live.”
this is not a contradiction at all. 1st off, “can’t” & “won’t” are 2 completely different things. 2nd which should be 1st, God is God. He does as He wants, and it will be righteous…because He said so. you can question it but you have to respect that He knows best. another thing, who says God has to change the laws of physics. mankind is limited. we don’t know everything there is to know about our universe. if we did, we wouldn’t still be looking into space for clues. and if we don’t know everything there is to know about the universe, then we don’t know everything about the physics of the universe. thus meaning that something that we are not familiar with could happen to prevent the sun from turning red giant or from harming us, IF man’s theory is even correct in the 1st place.
to my knowledge, lying is the only thing Jehovah can’t do.
that is not the entire basis of the Watchtower Religion. i wonder what you say about other denominations of Christianity. it must be a lot worse. or have you just singled out the Watchtower?
scientist are trying to recreate the big bang. they will never do it. since when has non-living matter created living matter? but they will always try as long as God hasn’t intervened yet. & since they will always try, it will always be a theory. always be an alternative to the belief in God. some people believe in theories, some people believe in solid evidence. some theories are right. until they can pull off a big bang, it will remain a theory. AND until science can create new life any ANY WAY, other than the obvious natural reproduction, you CANNOT DISCREDIT THE BIBLE. that is until you prove that life can be created without God, supernatural will always be the best explanation.
If the Bible isn’t fact, then wouldn’t it still be reasonable to say that whatever created us, is at least, as calculating as we humans are. the Creator would have to be at the very least, just as smart as we are. & if He is just as smart as we are, He has the capacity to love, care, hate, whatever. He would have to share at least some of our qualities & be aware of the all of them. how else would we get them. Our creator wanted us to to experience certain things. that means He cares. He cares whether we smell, or love or feel, or else we wouldn’t have those qualities. even if He wants us to suffer. that would mean that He cares whether or not we suffer. but He still CARES. is it possible to create & not care about what was created at some point? and if He cares, then He is interested in us. & if He’s interested in us, that means He watches us. I’m going in circles. the point is, our Creator whether or not from Bible account, cares if we do or do not enjoy life. therefore cares about us, even if not about our well being
let me just hit submit before I go on forever
Steve Reply:
August 11th, 2012 at 4:30 am
At some point I have to give up on trying to reason with you, no matter how much I may feel I need to atone for having spread WT lies in the past. We’re just about at the point where we’re going to have to agree to disagree as further discussion would be pointless. But I’ll have one more go:
1. Adam & Eve would not have lived forever without eating from the Tree of Life. There is no other way to understand Gen. 3:22. That means they were not perfect: they were dying just like the rest of us, and could only live forever by eating the magical fruit. That means the basis for the Ransom Sacrifice is gone, and the entire edifice of the WT religion rests upon it, as you even mentioned in one of your first posts. If you don’t get this simple point by now I’m not going to explain it to you again — ever again.
2. Acquired characteristics are not inherited. There is no chromosome in the DNA for sin. Just because my father sinned that does not make me a sinner in need of “salvation” any more than I can play the steel guitar just because my father learned how before I was born.
3. Jesus DID sin: he lied, he whipped people, he committed vandalism, he called people “fools” (which he himself defined as a sin)…
4. Killing one person for another’s crime (or “sin”) is blood-thirsty injustice and just plain stupid. But I’ve already explained this to you. It’s hard to imagine why you don’t get it until we factor in the brain-washing.
5. “God does what he wants and it will be righteous… because He said so…you have to respect that He knows best.” If God does what he wants then he wont “kill his children” as you’ve already stated.
But, in reality we have no idea what “He said” all we have are writings by anonymous barbaric authors of the Bible who mostly said (very conveniently) that God wanted to kill their enemies. Then they added the folklore of the surrounding nations. But they didn’t get it quite right: the original “Adam and Eve” story was told to explain why people die while snakes seemingly live forever (shedding their skins and thus seeming to rejuvenate themselves). The snake was God’s messenger sent to tell the first couple to eat from the Tree of Life. But the snake was sly and told them to eat from the Tree of Death instead, while the snake himself ate from the Tree of Life. The corrupted version of this ancient bit of folklore makes no sense, yet now sits at the heart of Christianity.
6. You asked: “who says God has to change the laws of physics”? My answer is: Anyone who says that it’s possible to live forever on a paradise Earth.
Of course we don’t know everything, but we do know that the Sun has already burned up about half of its supply of hydrogen and that it is burning it up at a rate of 620 million metric tons a second. We’ve seen what happens to other stars the same size as our Sun, so we know what will happen. As it burns up its fuel (converting hydrogen to helium in the fusion process) it changes: burning ever more brightly (and hotly). So, even though it will be about 12 billion years before the Sun becomes a Red Giant in its death throes and consumes the Earth, it will only be about 800 million years before all multicellular life has vanished from our no-longer habitable planet. We know this as surely as we know that if you turn a glass of water upside-down it will eventually empty out.
7. Yes, “some people believe in solid evidence”. But you are not one of them since you insist on supernatural explanations when the solid evidence shows that the universe is expanding (which means there had to have been a Big Bang in the past). Please find out what a scientific theory means before you denigrate it. We don’t have to recreate the Big Bang to prove it true. Please learn about the “scientific method” and develop critical thinking skills; I cannot take care of all of your education in these posts.
8. Yes, I can discredit the Bible without being able to create life. In fact, I have done exactly that in my book.
9. Yes, it’s possible to create something and then not care about it. But there is no reason to believe that any conscious being created us. It is an old hypothesis that should be discarded since the evidence is all against it.
Thanks for attempting to answer my main question, which I’ll now repeat since I think it’s gotten lost in the flurry of words:
“But since this [making the Sun burn forever] requires that God is able to change his own laws, why didn’t he change the law of ‘a perfect life for a perfect life?’”
But your answer is too full of holes for me. It consists of:
(a). “God wanted to show his love for people”.
Which I guess he did by abdicating his rulership to Satan, giving them death, a harsh environment in which to scrape a living, painful child-bearing, and by killing his son. All of this instead of just forgiving Adam for his ignorance regarding right and wrong. (Even though the Bible tells us that this same God “winked” at the nation of Israel’s ignorance for centuries.)
(b). “God does what he wants, and whatever that may be will be righteous.”
So he wanted to kill his own son and most of his “children”? How very “righteous” indeed!
I don’t buy the Bible’s explanation for any of this; it is full of nonsense and inherent self-contradictions. Worse: it gives a horrendous meaning to the word “love”.
I don’t believe in gods, sons of gods, virgin births, holy wars, faithful and discreet slaves, “Words of God”, talking serpents, or miracles. I deal with reality, and I don’t care to hear repeated half-thought-out attempts to justify belief in any of these things once I have taken the time to adequately demolish all such arguments in the simplest language possible.
So please don’t respond unless you have something new to say. We’ve all heard your tired arguments before and most of us have long advanced past such primitive thinking. I do have a life.
B_Low Reply:
August 11th, 2012 at 5:47 am
– B_Low
2012
davereekie Reply:
August 12th, 2012 at 8:25 am
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Anyway, fast-forward a thousand years and Satan “will be let loose” to give each of us survivors “one final test.” I do so hate pop quizzes, don’t you? If we don’t pass that test, then BAM! Dead again!
If this sounds absolutely ridiculous to you, you are not alone. This is what happens when a cult like Jehovah’s Witnesses, picks and chooses scriptures in the Bible to hang their beliefs on, twists them beyond belief, subjects them to the interpretation of a bunch of old farts in New York, then spits them back out to their brainwashed masses as the gospel.
Sincerely,
Glad To Be Out After 40 Years in This Hell
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It’s similar to how they state that blood transfusions are “a matter of conscience” as if there were no repercussions such as being shunned and threatened with death!
They speak with a forked tongue: saying one thing to the public and another to those whom they’ve already sucked into the organization.
If JWs are the only ones to be saved, I’ll pass on salvation, thank you very much.
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Steve Reply:
July 29th, 2012 at 10:18 pm
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But this only applies in certain circumstances, because when they feel like it they will be Judge, jury and “executioner”.
In my own personal experience I went to the elders of my congregation to ask for help. I told them I had sinned and felt spiritually weak and no longer felt sure of what was right.
Their response was not a loving and kind response, it was not a “let us help you”. It was, ” As a pioneer you are a pillar of this congregation. Others look to you as an example for their young daughters. you have sinned and we cant tolerate that, you will be disfellowshipped.”
I never understood what sense it made to cast someone out who came to them for help? I told them I was having issues, doubts, problems with my spirituality, and instead of helping me they forced me into a situation where I wouldn’t be allowed to talk to anyone and anyone who wanted to help me couldn’t talk to me…
I just couldn’t understand what happened to the mercy and the kindness? Why I was judged so harshly for admitting my own errors?
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Sakura Reply:
July 30th, 2012 at 7:03 am
I was publically reproved. I admitted my errors because i wanted to do the right thing. To me, it was a mistake. I will never go back to the elders because it made no sense to me that they should judge me and possibly cut me off for reasons i did not want to disclose to them. If God will judge me then so be it. I’m keeping my mouth shut until i find my own “truth”
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trusting poet Reply:
July 30th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
I am sorry for rambling and going off topic… I just have a lot going on in my head and its just begging to come out!
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Steve Reply:
July 30th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Please know that you are far from alone in such thoughts! I think just about all of us who have left have thought “How could I have been so stupid!” when we look back. Though your situation as a vulnerable child certainly wasn’t due to stupidity on YOUR part. I’m just sorry that I was ever part of an organization that could condone such sickening crimes.
Forums can help, and, given your pseudonym, here’s a poetic introduction to one: http://smmcroberts.net/poetry/forus.html
Sakura Reply:
July 31st, 2012 at 12:31 am
I’m scared of leaving because I’m afraid of what i might do. I can’t even handle the stress im already under! Being DF would top it all off. I wish there were like gatherings for people like you and I and even everyone the contributes to the site. it would be supportive and comforting. I know what you mean about the thinking abilities. I get very depressed when i think about my situation and how i wouldn’t stand a chance in Armageddon according to the beliefs. It’s all such a shame. I don’t have any friends in the organization anyway. I never listened to that bologna about keeping only witness friends. It would’ve been so much easier if the witnesses actually tried to help keep children and teenagers focused and on the “straight and narrow” by providing us with JW schools or programs. It’s like, how do you expect us to fully detach ourselves when “worldly” people are around? Im sorry all this has happened to you.
Steve Reply:
July 31st, 2012 at 2:37 am
Please follow the link I gave above to the JW Support forum; they have an Apostofest party-board for ex-JW’s trying to get together. Or Google “Apostofest” to hopefully find one near you. If nothing else, I think you would both find their forum (or the one Teeny recommends) a source of comfort and support. Also, feel free to contact me (see my website) for a safe off-line exchange of email addresses.
Alf1 Reply:
August 2nd, 2012 at 1:03 am