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How Many Significant Trees Were in the Garden of Eden?
Submitted by Teeny on August 6, 2010 - 9:05 am 65 Comments
This article is available as an mp3!
I picked up the good book, dusted it down, opened it and began to read from Genesis. I like to do this every now and then as it reminds me why I am now an atheist. You see, the Garden of Eden account was one of the real clinchers in my decision that there was no God, no Jehovah.
The real cracker is the account of the significant trees that are mentioned in the Garden of Eden account. Let me put this easy question to you; were there one or two significant trees in the Garden of Eden?
If you said one; the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, you’d be wrong. If, by the magic of chance, you guessed there were two trees; the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad and the Tree of Life, you’d be spot on.
“Oh yeah! Of course there were two significant trees in the Garden of Eden.” How did you forget that? If you didn’t forget that there were two trees, kudos to you.
Please open your bibles with me to Genesis chapter 2, verse 9.
“Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” – New World (Masonic Alert – Masonic Alert) Translation
Interesting, isn’t it. Now then, we come to the crux of the conundrum. Why oh why, do ALL Christian religions rarely talk about the Tree of Life?
The answer can be found in the bible. Please turn with me to Genesis chapter 3, verse 22.
“And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite.”
Hmmm, that’s interesting, isn’t it? This scripture shows two things; 1.) that the trees were not symbolic, for Moses, the secretary to whom the privilege was bestowed upon to write Genesis, states very clearly that the tree and fruit were actual and not symbolic, as many would have you believe.
Point 2.) Jehovah God made Adam and Eve perfect, but their perfection didn’t merit living forever; we can see that clearly from the above scriptures. Let’s not forget; in order for Adam and Eve to have lived eternally, they would have had to eat from the Tree of Life; their own perfect bodies could not sustain living forever. To clarify this point, please turn with me to Genesis chapter 3, verse 24:
“And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E’den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.”
Therefore, Jehovah knew that he would need to cut them off from the Tree of Life if he was to make good on his promise that man would not live forever.
Also, the word “perfect” cannot be found in any scripture, but I don’t want us to get sidetracked, so I’ll talk about that in another article.
So then, why do you think the topic of the Tree of Life is mentioned only on very rare occasions? Could it be that Jesus Christ died so that we could live forever? Oh, but wait, we would all need our very own Trees of Life, right?
Think about it.
Always ask questions and seek logical answers.
Listen to this blog by downloading this mp3 recording – read by Teeny Pyjamas
How Many Significant Trees Were in the Garden of Eden?,37 Comments
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My husband is an elder and I have told him about this and have also told him that unless he can provide me with relevant research, I won’t be going to any more meetings.
Thanks for this Teeny.
STL
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Amber Reply:
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:56 pm
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So if its the ‘tree of knowledge’ and it even existed, and they ate from it. Wouldn’t we know the answers to everything and not have to question things and seek answers.
Logic says it did not exist and is a lie. Along with so much more of this so called ‘good book’ that people blindly follow. ‘Oh but millions of people can’t be wrong’ … Yeah and the earth was flat and they’d fall off the end of it. Some ‘facts’ are not fact.
Evolution is only a theory. So is gravity. So hopefully they’ll just float the frick away.
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Don’t you get it? Why are you so stupid? Jehovah has never been wrong. Anything you may say will not change Jehovah’s time of vengeance and anger.
I’ve read through a lot of your pesky articles and have found no evidence or no source information in any of them.
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cw Reply:
August 29th, 2012 at 8:05 pm
Does this sound like neighborly love and spiritual concern to anyone here?
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You are such an idiot to think that Jehovah’s Witnesses actually read this trash!
We give our lives in service to Jehovah so that others may live through Armageddon and see the wonderful new world that Jehovah will prepare for us. You are guilty of murder, do you know that? Instead of using your techniques to help others join the organization and live, you are trying to take them out, trying to cut off there life-support.
Well, I am not having any more of it. I have contacted my local branch office and told them about your site. They have told me that they are waiting on Jehovah to ride you out of the wheat of Jehovah’s organization.
You and others like you make me sick. Please please please, use your skills and help others come to know Jehovah.
It is clear to me that you were probably a MS or even an Elder, so what made you change? Instead of love, you preach hate now and it makes me so sad because with a website that has the name Jehovah’s Witness Blog, you could have given it to the organisation and donated your time to writing articles that help us, but instead you write these maledictions.
I said it earlier, but I’ll sure aswell say it again, for every person you encourage to leave the organisation and therefore life, you are committing murder. The police might not question your actions, but I can guarantee the greatest police officer in the universe, Jehovah, is keeping full account of everything you do. There is still time to turn back to Jehovah. The end is closer than you think now and it would be a shame to loose someone with your talents to the sinking titanic which is this system of things.
Love,
Rohan
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Belle Reply:
July 23rd, 2012 at 5:18 pm
Wait, aren’t YOU reading it?
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big boss Reply:
August 11th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
You lose your mind.
You loose an arrow.
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And if you read them properly then you’d see the articles are supported by fact. Not by a book that claims its right without anything to back it up
Follow blindly or seek answers. Look for yourself and you will see that the religion is wrong in so many ways.
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Simple: without Jehovah, you are nothing. He gives you life and the will to go on. I was a drug addict and now I am free from drugs because Jehovah and all the loving brothers and sisters helped me. If it wasn’t for the love shown by our universal creator, where would I be now? Probably dead, or I would be a shadow of what a human ought to be be.
As I told the author, he can come back to Jehovah and I am sure the organisation and loving brotherhood will accept him back if he truly repents for his sins and then shows he has repented by using this website to promote Jehovah and his kingdom.
I suppose my words are wasted on people that do not have any faith whatsoever. Satan is so clever that he has made the world think that the word Faith means believing in something with no evidence. It clearly doesn’t mean that. There are 7 million, YES, 7 million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. Do you honestly think that we are all wrong and that a few ex witnesses are wrong?
If you do, you truly are arrogant and will do well to sit at Satan’s table and enjoy his unfaithful treats.
If you have faith, your eyes will be opened. look at Paul. He didn’t have faith and then his eyes were open. Faith without works is dead, he said. Faith is the key. Faith provides all the evidence you need to live a life in Jehovah’s service.
Surely you are not happy with your state of life?
Rohan
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I, like yourself have a lot of problems with understanding the Genesis story. I racked my brain for weeks on those two trees (I always knew that there were 2 trees). Like yourself I have tried to figure out if the punishment fit the crime, but I still believe that God knows best! My understanding of the Tree of Life is that Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:2 both states that the tree was for life and healing, however it stop existing on the earth after the flood. Humans have the promise of a ressurection from death, through the death and resurrection of Jesus. When we are resurrected we will still need to eat of the Tree of Life:Revelation 22:14, Revelation 2:7.
To Rohan,
Do you really think that God would be happy with the way you have spoken to Tenny? If this is what your religion teaches, I want nothing to do with you people!
It is good to always ask questions and seek logical answers, do not be misled by Preachers, Priests, Elders, etc. The Bible was given for us to read and understand, not for any organization to tell us what it says.
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Is this the way you would answer if someone you met in the ministry asked a question regarding the trees in Eden? Do you have an explanation…or better does the WTS provide one for you to repeat word for word? Or would you insult your householder as you did the writer of the article above?
Another question comes to mind in regards to the two trees: if Adam was perfect and so intelligent, why didn’t he eat fruit from the tree of life first to acquire immortality? And please no personal insults…a WTS answer will be accepted.
Of course I won’t hold my breath since no real™ JWs read this blog.
Gradually taking my distances…
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Thank you for your malevolent attack on my blog. You have basically done more than I ever could have, in that your comments have single-handedly assisted a friend of mine understand what the Organisation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses does to human beings.
Your comments ooze the cultish attitude that many acclaimed authors speak of. If I ever needed proof that the Jehovah’s Witness religion was a cult, you my friend are it.
Please keep up the good work.
Kind regards,
Teeny
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you fail Reply:
August 12th, 2012 at 6:27 am
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Andrew Reply:
August 12th, 2012 at 7:39 am
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I see what you’re saying as regards the two trees, but it just doesn’t stack up (like the rest of the bible).
Can you do me (and you) a favour?
I have created a new site, http://www.AtheistsWeekly.com. As you can see, it’s still under construction (of sorts). Please take a look at it, starting with the first ever article.
My aim is to publish a new article once every Thursday (from 2013 onwards) and it gives an honest account of the bible. Yeah, it really does.
So, just to recap, visit http://www.AtheistsWeekly.com and I think you may change your mind about the bible being given to us to “read and understand”?
Kind regards,
Teeny
PS. Rohan, I see you took my advice and continued to do the good work I asked of you…
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Read your bibles people! The tree of life wasn’t real. It was simply a want or need that the two early humans had to be near to in order to live forever. That’s why Jehovah blocked access to the garden because if they were not near the tree of life, they would have started to die.
By removing the tree of life from the close proximity of adam and eve, Jehovah simply pulled the plug on their lives, like we can see when we turn the power off from a fan. The rotor keeps moving, but sooner or later, the fan will stop. The tree of life was their life source.
If it was a real tree, don’t you think adam and eve would have eaten from it long before they ate from the tree of knowledge?
Also, the real important fact that you’re missing is that Jehovah wouldn’t have sent his son to die and take our sins away if all he had to do was give us all a tree to plant. Jehovah is far more intelligent than that.
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Odds of someone being wrong or right is usually 50-50.
So 1 in 1000 is pretty believable odds for them all being wrong i’d say.
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Ben Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 10:19 am
Also, one of the first psychological signs that someone doesn’t have an answer to criticism or a question of their beliefs is to undermine the person asking the question. If you had a good answer to any of our points, you’d have just happily told us. But you don’t, and you can’t, and if you can’t, you should take a closer look at your cult.
Regards,
Ben – not a former MS or Elder, but knowing more than they do about their sick twisted religion.
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Putting Rohan’s “full on retard” rant aside, you are correct in your logical assertion. We would all need to eat from the tree of life to gain immortality.
Fast FWD to the “end times”. Say the 7 million brainwashed buffoons are correct in having picked “the truth”? How does that work exactly? Does Jehovah give 7 million people in paradise access to ONE TREE? Is there some kind of distribution system? Some sort of “WalMart” for fruit of the tree? Maybe he does baskets, and they just show up at your door with a “Thank you for believing in me note (and a bill for your SOUL!).
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Ben Reply:
April 30th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
@Dizzy – I see your point about 1 in 1000 odds, but personally I think the number of people believing or not believing in something has no validity on whether it is true or not. Besides, they are a cult so they are already thinking they are separate from ‘the world’ with ‘special’ beliefs. The argument from majority wouldn’t work with them even if it were valid.
@Dana – God has no plan for mankind – he doesn’t exist. I understand why people need to find meaning in life, but why do people find comfort believing that their purpose in life is to basically live in servility to a cruel supernatural totalitarian deity? Your point about the sun is a good one that most Jehovah’s Witnesses would not have an answer for. Sin can’t explain that one away! Even if they say that god will take care of it, it seems like a poor design in the first place.
@Rohan – I’m still waiting for your evidence that we lied about anything… I won’t hold my breath. Oh, and you said, “I really can’t wait for Jehovah to weed you out at Armageddon and instruct all the birds to peck out your eyes as all the faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses look upon your silly excuse of a body” which only goes to show what a disgusting religion you are in, where people look forward to this! I’d rather die at an Armageddon than survive and see even one carcass of a child. Religion of love? Shame on you. We don’t preach hatred – we just tell people how it is and they can make their own minds up.
Regards,
Ben
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Anyway, after armaggedon doesn’t god resurrect everyone to judge them?
Now god wouldn’t resurrect everyone just to start systematically murder them. So wouldn’t this bring the point of the tree being a literal tree.
Everyone gets resurrected. Then gets given a choice. . Embrace god fully and partake in the tree and live forever serving him. Or reject god, be banned from the tree, and live until natural death happens.
Just a thought.
Dizzy.
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First, he went on to prove the validity of the post that was debated from the other week about how the JWs believe the birds will eat the dead bodies and that they won’t magically disappear. He sneers at the lack of sources on this blog despite that fact that many of the blogs contain direct quotes from the Society’s literature WITH references as to the articles and even scriptures. He says that “You are such an idiot to think that Jehovah’s Witnesses actually read this trash!” then in the next breath goes on to admit to being an active JW.(That kind of hypocrisy proves he is a JW). So that statement was clearly not true. He fully admits that anything, even aliens, can be proven by picking scriptures out of the Bible. Which is exactly what the Society does. He thinks the fact that 7 Million people believing something is the truth is greater than the fact that 7 BILLION people believe it is a lie. Plus, he admits the blog writers have “skill” and are so knowledgeable about the Bible and JWs that they must have surely been elders. Were we all really that dumb when we were still JWs?
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There was only one tree in the garden of Eden and that was the “Tree of Life”
This “Tree of Life” provided a certain type of energy that would have kept on prolonging their life span.
For how long we do not know, but perhaps for many thousands of years.
The concept of the “tree of knowledge of good and bad” was an add on by the Jewish scribes to promote guilt and the need for sacrifices and the idea that since Adam and Eve partook of the tree, we are all sinners automatically as a result.
Born sinners in fact, which makes no sense.
The “Ransom Sacrifice” today is the Christian way of continuing on with this concept.
So from the Christian theology, we are all sinners as inherited from Adam and Eve, and therefore in need of redemption as was provided by Jesus Christ when he died on the stake, or cross, or pole, or whatever you want to call it.
But from the scriptures itself it can be proven that God highly regards all life even those of small sparrows, so why indeed would he sanction animal sacrifices to appease his sense of holiness and to remind men and women that they are sinners in need of redemption?
Why indeed if he values life, particularly those who are close to him spiritually as Jesus (Michael) would have been as a creator son of his, would he require him to go down and die for us as a human sacrifice, something by the way that was forbidden in the Mosaic Law?
One thing I do know, is that God does not break his own laws.
No I believe Jesus did this of his own accord because he himself had great respect for all life, even small sparrows.
He wanted to put an end to all animal sacrifices and also in the process show us an example of self sacrificing love.
Of course as God’s approved son, as was mentioned at least twice throughout the gospels, God did not object to him doing this as it was his Son’s will and prerogative to do so.
Also in doing what he did he proved once and for all time his fitness to rule as king, not only over the earth but over Heavenly places as well, in our part of the universe.
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Teeny Reply:
June 23rd, 2012 at 5:36 pm
How about this – there was no Garden of Eden…
Err did you forget about the flood account then? Jehovah saw it fit to perform human, animal and plant cleansing, but we’ll gloss over that shall we…
I couldn’t find the scriptures that show you that he most definitely does break his own laws, therefore I’ll leave you with this thought:
Yes, I think the last sacrifice of note that was mentioned in the Bible was that of his son!
Before I go, take a look at this mighty fine example of God’s loving justice – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LWh6-Zyj4E&feature=channel
By the way, I can do this all day, so please keep them coming!
Regards,
Jaymes Payten (a.k.a. Teeny Pyjamas)
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I follow your line of thinking and I think that I can understand that you are alluding to the fact that the God of the Bible is not the desired God to be worshiped.
And this is true, because the way it is written about God by imperfect men is not the true picture of God or who he really is.
But there are clues throughout the scriptures where the spirit of God was active and does appear in many places throughout the Bible to reveal some truths about him.
Even the Apostles had not really got it right when writing the life story and his teachings down on parchment or whatever material they used back then to write on.
But still throughout the 4 gospels of Jesus we do have enough evidence to show how Jesus viewed God the Father and he taught this to his followers and the Jewish nation as a whole.
I believe that Jesus was indeed the “Word” of God and mirrored his Heavenly Father in that sense as the “Word” of God.
Jesus is also referred in the Bible as “Michael” meaning either “Who is like God” or “Who is like God?” I’m not certain of which.
And yes I do believe that this scripture is accurate when it states that God is complete in himself, along with his Eternal Son and his Infinite Holy Spirit.
Not as a trinity as taught in the churches but nevertheless a union of three different entities.
As for the “flood” scenario, well let us say that I have different views on that than what is mentioned in the Bible and there are other writings that bear up to the suggestion that yes there were major floods at a certain time but not necessarily on a worldwide scale and not at the instigation of God himself, but of natural occurrences that either came from within our solar system and outer space or from changes in the earth itself.
In one particular set of writings it does mention a man like Noah who did build a huge houseboat like structure to house his family and animals as well as all the animals in the area that he could gather. This could be where this account came from.
But it states that there was a rather a large flood in the area at the time that covered everything and it could have appeared to this family and friends that it did cover all the earth as far as they could see at the time, but other evidence that exist today suggests that this is not so and that there is actually no conclusive evidence so far that proves that the whole earth was covered by a flood scenario in one short period of time, except before any life existed here on the earth.
Whether this is true or not I really cannot confirm as I was not there at the time and neither has any archeological evidence being produced so far to prove one way or the other.
But to each and everyone of us who are searching for God, we do not have to look far to find him, we only need to look deep inside ourselves to find the true God and to look at his vast creation that has being intelligently evolved over a period of time at different intervals.
And of course if we use Jesus himself as a spiritual template we will also see the true God as he was the “expressed image” of the true God, the Father of all things.
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Andrew Reply:
June 28th, 2012 at 11:39 am
And you can’t use the bible to prove the bible – that’s circular reasoning (you talk of how the gospels are evidence – no, they aren’t, just as Lord of The Rings is not evidence of Hobbits!). If you can just make up what God is and what he wants, what’s the point? It’s all very silly.
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If you look deep down within yourself, you know who God is as we are all his children.
That is why we can call him our Father.
His Spirit resides in each and everyone of us and from time to time helps in adjusting our thinking, if we allow it to.
As for where I get the information from?
Well from the Bible, and from a few other sources of which I have studied.
One such source that has been of interest to me of late, is the Urantia papers, among others.
Do a search for the Urantia papers which is now in book form and what is contained within is very interesting information indeed.
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Andrew Reply:
June 29th, 2012 at 8:27 am
Then you use the bible, which I have already said is circular reasoning. I haven’t looked at the Urantia papers – I will – but unless it provides evidence for god (which I know it doesn’t, as that’d be world headline news), it has about the same credence as an episode of Battlestar Galactica. We should require EVIDENCE before we accept anything, and there so far has not been any evidence presented for god.
Looking deep within ourselves means diddly-squat. Every religious person always sees the god they already believe in – next time a Hindu sees Yahweh, let me know (not that it’d be evidence). We already know that humans can delude themselves and the brain works in weird ways – it isn’t evidence. Why don’t you religious people get this simple point?
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Yes at times I can come across as patronizing unfortunately because of the nature of my personality and so I do apologize because of this.
As far as being a religious type, well I am, but I am also an evaluater of science and philosophy as well and so I do try to take all these things into account when pursuing truth.
As for knowing God from deep within yourself, I make this statement because us humans are all capable of showing the God-like love that incorporates God of which the Bible makes the statement that “God is love” and we are intelligent beings with free will and who have a thirst for knowledge and spirituality.
God may be all knowing, but us humans are capable of reaching a high standard of knowledge and understanding and spirituality if we do fashion ourselves in the image of God as presented by his So Jesus who the Bible describes as the “expressed image of God”.
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Andrew Reply:
July 2nd, 2012 at 2:05 pm
You see the scientific method is the best method we as humans have devised at present to explore the universe and discover what things are true. The scientific method should be applied to all claims, and when we apply it to claims of god, we come up empty. There is no evidence for god whatsoever and until such evidence is provided, the rational position is not to accept the claim that he exists. If we go around accepting all claims without evidence, we’d all need to believe in unicorns, fairies, ghosts, invisible space worms, Ra, Anubis, Thor, and so on and so on for every single imaginary being any of us could come up with.
If anyone values what is true and is intellectually honest, they should analyse the evidence for god and realise that, as best we know now, it’s highly unlikely a god exists at all.
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I can see where you are coming from about evidence of God’s existence.
For this you must look at the mathematics that is behind all our universe.
And also investigate frequencies, for instance string theory etc.
Nothing in the universe happens by chance, however it can happen randomly but this is controlled by universal laws that are backed up by mathematics.
Also investigate fractal geometry and the Mandelbrot, you will be amazed at what you find.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot
Good luck with your research
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Andrew Reply:
July 13th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
No, that isn’t evidence for god. It’s just the argument from design with a spin, which has been debunked many a time. Just because there are constants, it doesn’t mean god did it, and certainly doesn’t prove it is the god you believe in – you are trying to prove god with a cause without proving god caused it, if you see what I mean. You’d need to prove the existence of god before you could attribute something to him. You can also see See http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Fine-tuning_argument for my position on this.
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Ok then for further potential evidence for existence of an intelligent designer (God) view these web addresses that I will just post below.
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Andrew Reply:
July 13th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
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It is my perception that no matter what I say myself to prove the existence of God it would not be enough as you would indeed have a counter argument.
So I use other sources such as above to show some of this evidence.
I do not necessarily agree with all of the content, but there should be enough in these two videos to get one thinking.
Having said that if it takes a mathematical genius to work out the mathematics behind the laws and principles of the Universal space continuum then would you not think that it would take a much more intelligent entity to develop the concepts in the first place to allow these mathematical geniuses to work it out in theoretical mathematical physics?
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Andrew Reply:
July 13th, 2012 at 7:42 pm
I have already explained why the mathematical argument is not evidence for god. Why did your god make those mathematical laws? Why not Thor? Or a giant fairy? Your argument is ‘wow, how complex the universe is, we don’t know how else it could have come into existence, so it must have been designed,’ which is called the argument from ignorance. Who says god is the only other option?
Also, you admit that your god would need to be much more complex than the universe in order to have created it, and therefore it is much more unlikely to exist. Which mind greater than god created god? And so on, with an infinite regress.
As I said, I will accept evidence. Evidence can not be countered by debate as it speaks for itself – what you have offered is not evidence, just some speculations and argument. You need to back it up with physical evidence. And as I also said, you can’t just say, “mathematical laws of the universe are complex so god did it,” because that isn’t evidence. I could just as easily say, ‘mathematical laws of the universe are complex, so the magic donkey of Zargon did it,” and it’d be an equally valid point.
I am open for discussion – if you want, you can email andrew At jehovahswitnessblog.com so we don’t completely hijack the comments here. As long as we keep it friendly and don’t get personally insulting, which I have experienced too often from believers, unfortunately.
Thanks.
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Ste Ríkharðsson Reply:
August 23rd, 2012 at 10:19 am
If there is a valid counter-argument against a claim, that undermines its truthfulness. If there were no valid counter-argument, then it would be a theory/fact.
Your task, is to come up with an argument that proves the existence of God, that has NO counter-argument… then you’re in the money.
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FutureMan Reply:
August 25th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Which is more logical, from your point of view?
(1) In the beginning there was nothing and then there was something?
(2) In the beginning there was something and then there was something more than something?
(1) 0 (cause) = effect ?
(2) 1 (cause) =effect ?
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Ste Ríkharðsson Reply:
August 28th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Cause and effect is a change in time or in space. Time and space only exist *within* our universe so all effects *within* our universe must have a cause.
“Outside” the universe however there is neither time nor space so there is no cause and effect. Nothing can “cause” something which does not have a time-line, the universe doesn’t have a time-line, the universe just is. The universe has “always” existed in the sense that time is a *part* of the universe, not something that the universe exists in. There was never a “time” when the universe didn’t exist. It expends (Big Bang) and probably contracts, but according to latest astrophysical and mathematical calculations it is never created or destroyed.
Therefore (2) is more logical from a scientific standpoint but that logic cannot apply to the universe itself because the universe is NOT an effect of anything… the cause and effect principle works only *inside* the space-time universe not “outside” it.
Andrew Reply:
August 28th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
However, physicists more favoured explanation is that everything was created in the big bang and the universe will continue to expand, driven by dark energy, rather than collapse (the big crunch) until everything is so far apart that life can not exist. The big crunch would be more likely to happen if gravity would suck things back in, but dark energy counteracts this, as we see the universe expanding an an increasing rate, not slowing down as would be the case if it was going to collapse again (like a ball slowing down in the air before it falls again).
I too am an ex-JW. I left about 6 years ago and officially disassociated myself in November of 2009. Unfortunately, my wife of 25 years remains a devout JW. But in spite of that we get along great even though she doesn’t have any kind of biblical conversation with me. See avoids spiritual discussion with me at almost any cost.
Anyway, I really enjoyed reading this article. However, there are just a couple of statements I’d like to kindly address. Let me begin by saying that since leaving the JW’s I’ve been digging deeper into the Bible than ever before and I‘m still a Christian. It’s amazing how things make much more sense to me without looking through the “Watchtower lenses.” Just recently I’ve been studying this account you’re speaking of in depth. But, needles to say, I can still learn from others whether believers (in God) or not. I respect your opinions and ask that you not be offended or defensive about the things I’m about to say. Perhaps we can learn from each other and in some cases we may have agree to disagree. I’m more than willing to do this while still respecting your stand.
That being said, I agree with you when you said the following, “The trees were not symbolic,” “Jehovah God made Adam and Eve perfect, but their perfection didn’t merit living forever.” & “Jehovah knew that he would need to cut them off from the Tree of Life if he was to make good on his promise that man would not live forever.”
As you mentioned, these are points that many, even most Christians miss. I’m not sure if you’ve noticed or not, but in the book of Revelation when all is said and done, mankind is given access to the tree of life once again. (See Revelation 22:14) This goes right along with your statement when you said, “Let’s not forget; in order for Adam and Eve to have lived eternally, they would have had to eat from the Tree of Life; their own perfect bodies could not sustain living forever.” Teeny, this shows me that Satan was wrong when he said, “You will become like God.” (Genesis 3:5) Adam and Eve did come to know good and evil, but they did not have life in themselves without God! This is the point! Without what I believe to be our creator, (God) we have no life. The tree of life shows we are dependant on Him for eternal life and that will always be the case. We do not have eternal life in ourselves but only from God!
I hope this makes sense. There are many things I could say, but I just wanted to give you my 2 cents worth. Again, I really enjoyed your article! I hope to hear from you soon. Perhaps we can skype or chat sometime.
Sincerely,
Mark.
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Andrew Reply:
July 23rd, 2012 at 6:21 am
Thanks for your comment. Personally I don’t really like arguing points about the bible, which is why Teeny writes this sort of article rather than me. To me, arguing a point in the bible would be like discussing what the actual shape of fairies wings are, or the exact route that Han Solo flew the Millennium Falcon in Star Wars. The bible is a work of fiction in my opinion, and until someone provides evidence that god exists, and then that he wrote the book, there is not much point debating the correct interpretation of certain bits of it.
Regards,
Andrew
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Mark Reply:
July 24th, 2012 at 5:11 am
Thanks for responding! Have you always felt this way about God and the Bible? If not, do you mind me asking what changed your opinion? One last thing, were you ever a JW?
Mark.
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Andrew Reply:
July 24th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
I used to believe in god and the bible, yes. I was also a Jehovah’s Witness. But as I grew older I realised I only believed it because that was what I had been taught by my parents. I realised that I needed good reasons to believe something. I learned critical thinking and what good reasons are to believe something and saw that there is no evidence for gods existence. I also saw the contradictions in the bible.
I am more than happy to have a chat with you, Mark, (its not often I find people who are respectful about this topic – thank you) but let’s do it by email instead so we don’t hijack the comments here. You can email andrew@jehovahswitnessblog.com if you like.
Andrew
Betty Reply:
July 24th, 2012 at 9:35 am
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Andrew Reply:
July 24th, 2012 at 12:01 pm
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GOD says: “In the DAY you eat from it you will positively DIE”. Gen.2:17
The SNAKE says: “You positively will NOT die, for God KNOWS that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be OPENED and you are bound to be LIKE GOD knowing good and bad”. Gen.3:4-5
“Then the eyes of both of them became OPENED and they began to realized that they were naked”. Gen.3:7
GOD then later says “Here the man has become LIKE ONE OF US in knowing good and bad”. Gen.3:22
Later in chapter 5, Genesis reports: “So all the days of Adam that he lived amounted to NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY YEARS and he died”. Gen.5:4
Who actually was lying?
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You stated this :
“Cause and effect is a change in time or in space. Time and space only exist *within* our universe so all effects *within* our universe must have a cause.
“Outside” the universe however there is neither time nor space so there is no cause and effect. Nothing can “cause” something which does not have a time-line, the universe doesn’t have a time-line, the universe just is. The universe has “always” existed in the sense that time is a *part* of the universe, not something that the universe exists in. There was never a “time” when the universe didn’t exist.”
Ok, that is a fair enough statement.
So our universe has always existed in one form or another.
But what about life? Awareness? Consciousness?
Where did we receive this?
Life is not something that can just appear out of thin air, or out of space, can it?
Therefore intelligent life and must have always existed, in one form or another.
That is what I call God, the cause and the source, and origin of all things.
God is life and the light of all life in this universe.
This is what the apostle John had to say about this as is written in the gospel of John of the Bible.
John 1
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men; [LITV]
This is what the Urantia papers have to say about this.
Paper 1
The Universal Father *
(21.1) 1:0.1 THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: “You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain.” Only the concept of the Universal Father — one God in the place of many gods — enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.
(21.2) 1:0.2 The myriads of planetary systems were all made to be eventually inhabited by many different types of intelligent creatures, beings who could know God, receive the divine affection, and love him in return. The universe of universes is the work of God and the dwelling place of his diverse creatures. “God created the heavens and formed the earth; he established the universe and created this world not in vain; he formed it to be inhabited.”
(21.3) 1:0.3 The enlightened worlds all recognize and worship the Universal Father, the eternal maker and infinite upholder of all creation. The will creatures of universe upon universe have embarked upon the long, long Paradise journey, the fascinating struggle of the eternal adventure of attaining God the Father. The transcendent goal of the children of time is to find the eternal God, to comprehend the divine nature, to recognize the Universal Father. God-knowing creatures have only one supreme ambition, just one consuming desire, and that is to become, as they are in their spheres, like him as he is in his Paradise perfection of personality and in his universal sphere of righteous supremacy. From the Universal Father who inhabits eternity there has gone forth the supreme mandate, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.” In love and mercy the messengers of Paradise have carried this divine exhortation down through the ages and out through the universes, even to such lowly animal-origin creatures as the human races of Urantia.
P404:5, 36:6.7 There are some things connected with the elaboration of life on the evolutionary planets which are not altogether clear to us. We fully comprehend the physical organization of the electrochemical formulas of the Life Carriers, but we do not wholly understand the nature and source of the life-activation spark. We know that life flows from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit. It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation. But we do not comprehend the technique whereby the supervising Master Spirit participates in the initial episode of life bestowal on a new planet. The Ancients of Days, we are confident, also have some part in this inauguration of life on a new world, but we are wholly ignorant of the nature thereof. We do know that the Universe Mother Spirit actually vitalizes the lifeless patterns and imparts to such activated plasm the prerogatives of organismal reproduction. We observe that these three are the levels of God the Sevenfold, sometimes designated as the Supreme Creators of time and space; but otherwise we know little more than Urantia mortals — simply that concept is inherent in the Father, expression in the Son, and life realization in the Spirit.”
This is what the entity who called themselves the RA Collective have to say about God:
13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the first known thing in the creation?
Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.
13.6 Questioner: From this infinity then must come what we experience as creation. What was the next step or the next evolvement?
Ra: I am Ra. Infinity became aware. This was the next step.
13.7 Questioner: After this, what came next?
Ra: Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.
13.8 Questioner: Can you state the next step?
Ra: The next step is still at this space/time nexus in your illusion achieving its progression as you may see it in your illusion. The next step is an infinite reaction to the creative principle following the Law of One in one of its primal distortions, freedom of will. Thus many, many dimensions, infinite in number, are possible. The energy moves from the intelligent infinity due first to the outpouring of randomized creative force, this then creating patterns which in holographic style appear as the entire creation no matter which direction or energy is explored. These patterns of energy begin then to regularize their own local, shall we say, rhythms and fields of energy, thus creating dimensions and universes.
13.12 Questioner: Can you tell me how intelligent infinity became, shall we say (I’m having difficulty with the language), how intelligent infinity became individualized from itself?
Ra: I am Ra. This is an appropriate question.
The intelligent infinity discerned a concept. This concept was discerned due to freedom of will of awareness. This concept was finity. This was the first and primal paradox or distortion of the Law of One. Thus the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness. Due to the infinite possibilities of intelligent infinity there is no ending to many-ness. The exploration, thus, is free to continue infinitely in an eternal present.
13.13 Questioner: Was the galaxy that we are in created by the infinite intelligence or was it created by a portion of the infinite intelligence?
Ra: I am Ra. The galaxy and all other things of material of which you are aware are products of individualized portions of intelligent infinity. As each exploration began, it, in turn, found its focus and became co-Creator. Using intelligent infinity each portion created an universe and allowing the rhythms of free choice to flow, playing with the infinite spectrum of possibilities, each individualized portion channeled the love/light into what you might call intelligent energy, thus creating the so-called Natural Laws of any particular universe.
As you can see, slightly different vantage points, but all alluding to an intelligent Creator.
The Urantia papers were delivered by entities who were very much aware of the Creator, however we might view these entities.
Same goes for those who channeled information through the research paranormal group and called themselves Ra.
These entities are real, and they testify themselves to the existence of an intelligent Creator..
We might not understand exactly who they are, but they are very much part of the reality of the fabric of this universe.
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Andrew Reply:
August 28th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
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But how creation has come about via the creator is another issue entirely.
Secular Science today as described through evolution, does not rule out the existence of a creator.
Quite the contrary really as it shows a very complex mechanism that has being put in place to evolve all life in our universe.
A programming that is far beyond our comprehension and yet it exists in every cell that makes up part of our bodies.
Scientists, the geneticists, can rely on this complex programming that exists in our genetic code to map out our DNA and so on.
Scientist can rely on the laws of our universe to send a spacecraft to the moon and beyond that to mars and so on.
This is not a haphazard universe even though it does have chaotic events happen within it.
The universe is seemingly chaotic yet there is an order to it that holds it all together as it expands and contracts.
Stars supernova in a blinding flash of light, yet out of the remnants of these once magnificent stars, comes a genesis of a new creation of stellar objects.
One day our sun too, will supernova, but we will be ready when it does if we are still living on the earth as humans at that time period.
Everything in this universe changes or transforms into something else.
Humans one day too will have to transform as a race into a higher form of life.
But in the mean time as one by one we finish our earthly destinies, we move on to the next level of life in a different form.
Not spirit, but a more durable body that is more energy efficient and that is not prone to the sickness and illness that is so prevalent on this planet today.
May our Creator bless you all in your endeavors to find the real truth that is out there.
May you all progress to perfection and spiritual maturity that brings us much closer to God himself as approved children of his.
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Andrew Reply:
August 28th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
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FutureMan Reply:
August 28th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
“God is a Spirit”.
So therefore you must investigate the evidence from a spiritual vantage point.
Science as we understand today through scientists, who themselves are floundering in intellectual darkness as proven by the variety of theories and explanations that they come up with, only later to be disproved by a more progressive scientist and so on it goes.
God is not something that we can tangibly prove by physical evidence, but we can see his existence through the formation of things and through our own intelligence for what that is worth.
Animals do not testify to God’s existence, but we do because we are made in his Image, via advanced beings.
This planet as I understand was seeded with life and it evolved from there.
But yes as you say, I’m done as you wish.
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Why are people getting so worked up over this? Certain people that have commented here that claim to be Jehovah’s witnesses do not post in a very respectable manner. About half of my family are still JW’s, the other half decided it’s not for them for various reasons. We all live happy lives and of the two groups, our actions and beliefs don’t hurt anyone. SO live your lives, relax. We are allowed to have and have the human right to, differing points of view, and differing beliefs.
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Both “trees” were literal. One… the Tree of Life… was… and IS… is a person, actually. Let me show you. The garden and tree, first:
“[Jehovah] God planted a garden in E′den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Thus [Jehovah] God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” Genesis 2:8, 9
Now… one of the trees:
“And it must occur in that day that there will be the root of Jes′se that will be standing up as a signal for the peoples. To him even the nations will turn inquiringly, and his resting‐place must become glorious.” Isaiah 11:10
“‘Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men [serving] as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!’” Zechariah 3:8
“I am the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE”… John 14:6
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit. … I am the vine, YOU are the branches.” John 15:1, 5
“And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side the TREE OF LIFE producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the TREE for the curing of the nations.” Revelation 22:1, 2 (Note: The NWT normally states… and the WTBTS erroneously teaches… that there are “trees”, plural, and that they represent the 144,000″. Without going into the lie that this even refers to the 144,000 I will only state that this rendition AND its teaching is false – there is only ONE “tree” of life. Thankfully, they had the wherewithall to support that truth – and thus, negate their lie – in the footnote for the verse in the NWT Reference Bible).
To further help those who want to know the truth about this matter understand how and why Christ is that “Tree”, I offer his words, as recorded at John 6:48-58 (please note verses 50, 51, 54, and 58):
“‘I am the bread of life. YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.’”
“Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ Accordingly [Jesus] said to them: ‘Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him.Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.’”
Christ is the Tree of Life: the TRUE Vine… the ROOT of Jesse… SPROUT! His flesh is the “leaves” that “cure” the nations. Anyone who EATS of HIM, the Tree [of Life]… will live forever. That really is the only way – there is no other.
By its teachings that only small group of individuals can/should “partake” of Christ’s flesh and blood the WTBTS is, in essence, “shutting up the kingdom of the heavens before men.” Since THEY do not go in/are not going in… they are making it so others also don’t/won’t go in… by convincing them that it is absolutely okay to “reject” the very means by which such ones can attain [everlasting] life: by eating from the Tree OF Life. (Matthew 23:13)
As for the other Tree, that was NOT a tree that allowed Adham/Eve to know good FROM bad, or good VERSUS evil. It was a Tree that they were told would allow them to KNOW… good… AND bad. The knowledge of good… AND bad. Not good FROM bad/good VERSUS bad.
What does this mean, the knowledge of good AND bad? It was a tree that allowed them to know good… LIFE… AND bad… DEATH. Good = life. Bad = death. Prior to eating, they only knew good. Life. The Adversary told Eve that if she ate she would be “life God”… knowing good… AND bad. Meaning… she could know good (life) and bad (death) and yet LIVE. LIKE God (over whom death has no hold).
Eve believed this… that she COULD know (i.e., have personal knowledge of) good… life… and bad… death… and yet live. That she would “NOT die.” So… she ate. When Adham saw that she had eaten and NOT died (as of that time)… he, too, ate. She was deceived into doing so because of the lie told to her (that she would not die); he chose to eat because he thought that although she’d eaten she really wasn’t going to die. She was wrong; so was he.
Adham’s “sin,” however, wasn’t so much that he disobeyed and ate – that was not blasphemy and so could have been forgiven. His SIN… was that, rather than give HIS life in exchange for Eve’s, after HER error, which he could have done because he was still “perfect” and so his life COULD have atoned for hers… he sold her out, her and their seed. In exchange for the RIGHT to live forever, he made a “deal” with Death (well, Death’s agent, the Adversary). His progeny for the “key” so that Death would not hold HIM. In doing so, he sold his wife… and his progeny… to sin and death.
Unlike Christ… who GAVE his life… for his wife/children: the Bride, New Jerusalem, and the “children of Light” (John 1:3, 5; 8:12). In contrast to Adham, he showed that he had “no greater love”… than to give HIS life on behalf of [his friends], his “best” friend being his “bride.” Adham, on the other hand, showed that he would not only put his own life first, but above those he was SUPPOSED to love: his bride and their children.
Now, I realize you’ve never heard these things before but that’s because those you’ve learned what you have from don’t know it. Because they are not who they say they are – “anointed”. To the contrary, they are “false christs” and “false prophets” (Matthew 24:24), whose very purpose is the “mislead the even the chosen ones, if possible.” And they have misled you dear folks here, as is evident by your perception of the garden and trees. They are imposters, claiming to know… and worse, claiming to know by holy spirit. That is a lie! They possess no such spirit for it they did… they COULDN’T lie… and they lie all the time.
So, please… consider letting go of ALL that they have taught you… and start over, completely. One way to get an accurate understanding of what IS the truth is to go TO the Truth, Christ (John 14:6). That One even stated:
“‘YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life.’”
Seriously. If you are interested in learning the truth about these things, then I exhort you to go TO the Truth… and to no one else. Now, don’t get me wrong: I did not post this to convert anyone. It is not up to me who gets called… or who hears the call. I posted it because the comments by some as to what the trees were… and whether they were real or not… are erroneous. Given that, I thought perhaps if someone WANTED to know the truth, the least I could do was share it. What ones choose to DO with/about it is entirely up to them… and God.
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
P.S. The “garden” was/is not a physical place; it is a spiritual place. Adham/Eve were created in the physical realm and taken from that INTO the spirit realm (garden). This could be done because, like Christ, they were half-breeds: bodies of physical flesh but spirit (life force/blood) from God. By means of that blood (GOD’s blood – holy spirit), they could “go in and out” between the spirit and physical realms. As Christ did when he transfigured. Once they were given “long garments of skin”, however (and this was NOT animal skin but a body with hemoglobin as its blood, vs. holy spirit)… they could no longer transfigure. Flesh… with ITS blood… cannot enter into the kingdom (spirit realm). It is only flesh with God’s blood… holy spirit… that can transfigure/transcend… so as to enter into the spirit realm/kingdom of God. I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
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Andrew Reply:
September 1st, 2012 at 10:20 pm
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Peace!
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I have studied the Org at great detail and to me the quote from Orwell’s 1984 applies perfectly. It was in reference to a future under compete party control.. substitute party for Org and its perfect:
“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever”
I’m a Christian but a pragmatic logical one.. I accept evolution and science (I’m a geneticist).. U know Gregor Mendel (the father of genetics) was a Roman Catholic priest.. He could also see that religion and science are cool together if your not an idiot
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-2- you will be like God
Two false statements of the same tree.
Jehovah was being sarcastic. simple.
B
one tree, differs by viewpoint.
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