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Gay Jehovah’s Witness Victims
Submitted by Andrew on March 15, 2012 - 8:35 pm 60 Comments
Let’s spare a moment to think about the gay Jehovah’s Witness victims.
If you didn’t know this, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not condone homosexuality. Romans 12:19 is often used to instruct the flock to ‘abhor what is wicked.’ Also, they believe that men who lie with men will not inherit god’s kingdom. In Leviticus, the penalty for homosexuality is death. Leviticus 18:22 says, ““‘And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.” Verse 29 says, “In case anyone does any of all these detestable things, then the souls doing them must be cut off from among their people.”
Obviously, in the eyes of a Jehovah’s Witness, committing ‘homosexual acts’ is a sin. Jehovah’s Witnesses are told to hate what is bad.
Not only are homosexual people not allowed privileges in the congregation, it is a cause for disfellowshipping. But that doesn’t make Jehovah’s Witnesses homophobic, does it?
Um. Yes! Undoubtedly. By treating homosexual people differently from heterosexual people, they are being prejudiced and even incite hatred. After all, you can’t just ‘hate the act’ as so many Jehovah’s Witnesses like to parrot, when being homosexual is more than just anal sex, which, incidentally, is forbidden (by the Jehovah’s Witness hierarchy), even in heterosexual relations. Sexuality is part of what makes up a person, his or her character, etc.
People don’t choose what sex they are attracted to. It is how they are born. Jehovah’s Witness literature seems to acknowledge this a little bit in the Young People Ask article, Homosexuality – How Can I Avoid It? It says, in an almost backhanded insult, “It is not the purpose of this article to delve into the “nature-versus-nurture” debate. Indeed, it seems that it would be a gross oversimplification to attribute homosexuality to a single cause. Homosexuality—much like other forms of behavior—appears to be far more complex than that.”
It also says, “Regardless of the cause, the important thing to realize is that the Bible condemns homosexual acts. Thus, the person who is struggling with same-sex desires is presented with a reachable goal—he or she can choose not to act on those desires.”
So, god created some people to be homosexual, or allowed them to be born into sin without choice of their sexuality, and will then punish them for it? Also, as a heterosexual man, homosexual relations are not something that attract me, but that doesn’t make it wrong – I used to be a closed minded Jehovah’s Witness too, but since breaking free, I have seen how homosexual relations are more than just sex – they are relationships.
By denying men and women the right to fall in love with someone based on an old, immoral, book, Jehovah’s Witnesses should be ashamed of themselves.
But what of those homosexual people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses, but ‘suppress their urges’, as encouraged in the Watchtower literature? I’ve heard it said, “Yes, but they don’t act on their impulses!” Well, how do we know they don’t? They could be succumbing to their urges even as you read this post.
The fact is that many Jehovah’s Witnesses are homosexual and have to suppress what makes them, them, all due to the homophobia that is preached throughout their ranks. Some people have even been driven to suicide thanks to this abhorrent teaching from a so-called religion of ‘love’.
Gay Jehovah's Witness Victims,23 Comments
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- Teeny: Thanks for sharing your experience Ella. Unfortunately these life stories aren’t at all rare. When the...
- Ella: I got into a similar arguement with my Dad and told him that I just can’t follow a religion who follows a...
- Ella: I left the religion close to nine years ago. I too never understood how when natural disasters hit, they would...
- Teeny: You sir, are my hero! If you can read past Genesis chapter 6, you deserve religion…
- Martin: Genesis chapter 3, verse 22. “And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in...
They finally caught up with him and asked the fateful question do you what to be a Jehovah’s Witness? Of course he said no and was therefore disassociated, cut off from every friend he grew up with and for a time, his grandparents.
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Teeny Reply:
March 16th, 2012 at 8:48 am
Thanks for the comment.
It is truly terrible how this cult (and it is a cult) deals with its members. I always like to question them on “the love they show to others”.
If your son (or you) would like to tell others about his experience, please let us know. Email me Teeny@JehovahsWitnessBlog.com
Kind regards,
Teeny
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All gays should be respected if you are a jw or not. Look what happened to Tlyer Clementi he jumped off the Geroge Washington bridge and commited sucide in 2010 he roomate was spying on him via webcam. Before that three kids were gay killed themselves. They should end bullying against gays, it should not matter if your religion dosen’t accept for who you are that means there probably not friends of yours!
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Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 8:57 am
At 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9,10 it talks about who will not inherit God’s Kingdom. It talks about men who lie with men but not just them, fornicators, idolaters and others. Everyone in the congregation is held to the same standard.
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Drew Reply:
January 12th, 2013 at 6:17 am
It is a fact that child molestation has been covered up in this way and it is shocking to me that so many “good Jehovah’s Witnesses” who were out knocking on doors telling them about the abhorrent child rape that occurred in the Catholic Church turn a blind eye to the crimes that are committed in and then covered up by their own religion.
Also, your analogy about smoking is irrelevant since people aren’t born smokers. There is no way that gay people can become non-gay in the way that a smoker can become a nonsmoker. You said hate the smoking. If a person is inherently something and you hate it, you hate the person.
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I want to thank you for such a nice article. As a lesbian, my gut reaction is to cringe whenever I see articles about gay people because I assume it is going to be something negative. It is such a relief to see straight people sticking up for us and understanding us. Thank you!
I grew up a JW until I was 25. It took me that long to realize I was a lesbian because I was such a goody-goody JW that it never occurred to me that the reason I never dated, was horrified by the idea of marriage to a man, and didn’t have the crushes on boys like my other friend’s had was because I was a lesbian (and let’s face it, if you are a female JW and are still unmarried by age 20, something is probably wrong with you!).
I knew I didn’t like men, but wouldn’t admit I liked women. Looking back, there were glaringly obvious signs and it apparently did not come as a shock to a lot of people except me. It took a female fellow JW admitting she was in love with me to open my eyes. And even that took a while to process. Funny thing was, I could easily pinpoint gay brothers in the congregations and couldn’t figure out why no one else realized they were gay. One fellow JW was your classic stereotypical effeminate gay male (even was a huge fan of show tunes and Broadway) and when he started dating a fellow sister I was horrified! It just seemed so wrong to me, like it was unnatural for him to be doing that. There is no doubt in my mind that he is gay and I just hope that by now he has figured it out and hasn’t married that girl. But to the JWs, the gay guy marrying the straight girl would be fine. Despite totally being gay even if he wasn’t sexually active, he was approved to be a pioneer and ministerial servant. Which also bothers me: how does not being sexually active mean you are not gay? Does a straight person not being sexually active mean they are not heterosexual?
I got Disfellowshipped after the sister who was in love with me told an elder’s wife in confidence. Of course, there is no such thing as in confidence among the JWs. Even though having never done anything physical with each other, we were both Disfellowshipped within days. We were called all sorts of mean names, they rushed the entire process without using the Bible, praying, or following the standard procedures. In fact, we weren’t Disfellowshipped for being lesbians because we hadn’t actually done anything at that point. They told us we were never allowed to see or speak to each other again and we disagreed that that was the best option. We even asked for chaperoned visits with each other as friends or just to talk to each other in the Kingdom Hall. They said no to everything and officially Disfellowshipped us for “not obeying the elders”. Still haven’t found that command in the Bible yet.
Like the sister wrote about above, this all went down within days of the Circuit Overseers visit and they just wanted us out instead of trying to lovingly help us. The best part was when the one elder tried to tell me that lesbianism was wrong because a woman could never sexually satisfy another woman as well as a man could. I have never been with a man and at that point still had not been intimate with a woman, yet it was all I could do not to burst out laughing at such an absurd remark!
Ironically, it was the Watchtower that helped me accept my homosexuality and finally embrace who I am and leave the Organization. I was trying to be reinstated and was researching articles on homosexuality in the publications to help me rid myself of my “problem”. I found an article written by a “former” gay man who is now an elder married to a woman. He wrote of how he daily has to pray not to have those desires. I realized that if this is something he admits to having to try to suppress on a DAILY basis despite having sex with the opposite sex and firmly believing it is a sin, then this is just something that is an ingrained part of a person and you can’t pray the gay away no matter how hard you try. It is just naturally who some people are (thus not going against Romans 1:24-27).
I also felt horrible for the man’s wife who had to have read that and has to deal with the fact that her husband is not sexually attracted to her and is likely just married to her because he feels like that is what he is supposed to do. Who wants their spouse to need to pray to have the urge to sleep with them? I would never do that to a man.
So I would like to thank the elders for their unscriptural disfellowshipping of me, the Organization for helping me see the actual Truth, and you for your lovely article.
Lacy
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Teeny Reply:
March 17th, 2012 at 9:16 am
Thank you for your amazing comment. It made me laugh and cry. Reading stories like yours make me thank the stars that I’m finally out of this truly destructive cult. I would love to use your life experience in a future article on JWB if that’s okay with you?
Even though you thanked me for the article, it was Ben that wrote it. Both of us are so sick and tired of they way Jehovah’s Witnesses spout that they’re all about “love”, but when it matters, and I mean really matters, they seem to forget where their love went. Their tactics are based on self-preservation within their cult and the majority of them care what others think of them. I don’t call that love, I call that being selfish.
Ben did a great job with the article and we both personally hope it’s opened the door to more homosexual JWB readers coming forward with their experiences, and even better still, allowing gay and lesbian Jehovah’s Witnesses to come out and be who they truly are.
I too have a cousin that lives in the States who is gay. He is a married elder unfortunately. I feel so sorry for his wife. We get to see them every couple of years when the come and visit us in Cyprus, and you can see just how depressed his wife is. It sickens me that people (not just Jehovah’s Witnesses) can’t love who they like, how they like.
If you ever want to chat about anything, you can always contact me via email at Teeny@JehovahsWitnessBlog.com.
Love,
Teeny x
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Ben Reply:
March 19th, 2012 at 11:16 am
Regards,
Ben
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Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 9:20 am
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Andrew Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 6:20 pm
You do not need to actually have sex to be homosexual – if you are attracted to the same sex, you are homosexual.
You say that the only reason that being gay is not allowed is because it’s in the bible. Well so what if it’s in the bible? That isn’t a good reason. Why would god create homosexuality (because we KNOW that sexual preference is not a choice) and then punish a person for it? You could not have a loving relationship and get married, be in love, share your life with another man even if you didn’t have sex. But why shouldn’t you? There is no good secular reason why not.
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Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 6:58 pm
1: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2
: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex
What I meant was that I identify with the first definition.
Looks like we are bringing out two different points. I am saying that I believe in the Bible and that I am trying to live my life as a Jehovah’s Witness because of my belief in the Bible.
I believe you are saying that the Bible isn’t valid and because of that & because people who are gay are born gay then it is no good reason not to be who you are
Andrew Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Jeff Reply:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:30 am
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Andrew Reply:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:16 pm
Let’s say you were a United States Marine, had taken the oath to give all that you were, are, or ever could be to defend the Republic with your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor ….. everything you are …..
… but along comes World War II and … being of German Heritage, and having sympathies for the homeland of your fathers … you decide to embrace National Socialism, return to Germany, and fight for the Third Reich.
THE EXACT SAME THING IS THE CASE WITH JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES.
You cannot be a practicing Jehovah’s Witness AND be a homosexual.
You want it both ways … and that is impossible under the oath that Jehovah’s Witnesses give when they dedicate their lives, souls, and all they will ever be to serve Jehovah God.
There is a word in the Marines for abandoning your oath of fealty, allegiance, duty and honor ….. and there is a word equally applicable and quite valid for when a person wants to be a JW AND be a homosexual ….
…. the word is TREASON.
Every civilized nation in the world realizes that the treasonous person deserves execution,and in the United States Marines, they used to hang traitors by the neck until dead.
Or shoot them.
The civilians Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were convicted of selling U.S. Hydrogen Bomb secrets to the Soviets … and for their treason they were executed in the electric chair, in New York, if memory serves.
I can just see the hypothetical Marine, or the Rosenbergs now, “BOO HOOO HOOOoooo…. all our friends have ostracized and abandoned us just because we believe differently than THEY do … It is not FAIR! What a bunch of bigots and unreasonable people!”
Grow up.
…
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Teeny Reply:
March 18th, 2012 at 11:32 am
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Ben Reply:
March 19th, 2012 at 11:23 am
I am truly saddened by your, sorry to say, ignorant comment. You obviously missed the point of the article which said homosexuality isn’t a choice.
And to say Jehovah’s Witnesses are a religion of love, then to read vile thoughts like yours condemning people for who they are… it’s a joke, and you should be ashamed of yourself and the despicable cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses should be too.
To show how gross and sickly your comments are, replace the word ‘gay’ with ‘black’. Jehovah’s Witnesses used to teach that black people were full of sin and that god would make them perfect and white in the new system (Click here to read about it). I’d hope you’d see how their racism was obviously incorrect and inhumane. Same story here.
I also find it strange that you would defend a religion that also condemns you for being a soldier…
Ben
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Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 9:29 am
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Andrew Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Being gay is not a choice, just as being black or white is not a choice, and people should not have to adjust their lives because of it. If you are gay, be gay. If you are straight, be straight.
Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 7:12 pm
Matt 5:28 applies to both gay and straight people. A Jehovah’s Witness doesn’t get in trouble if they just thought about a person but If a person not just looks but KEEPS looking at a woman or man then they will give into the temptation because it is in their heart to do it with that person. This scripture is showing that it makes it easy to give in when you keep thinking about that person. This scripture shows that what you do is a choice. It’s didn’t say anything about it being wrong to have the actual desire for the woman but it is wrong to KEEP looking at her, or not dismiss the thought that popped up of having sex with her or him for that matter
Andrew Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 7:56 pm
Everyone has a basis for their morals and values. They normally come from their religion, parents, culture and peers. Mines come from those things and because I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I believe in what the Bible says.
I am basing my statements off of my belief in God first and then on my belief in the Bible and also what the Bible says.
I think we are actually talking about two different things again. Hear I believe you are saying that it is wrong for a religion to deny a person the ability to have a loving relationship whether it be gay or straight and I believe your basis is what your inner sense of right and wrong is saying and how you feel
She even reasoned that suicide was a better way out because I’d be granted heterosexuality and perfection in the new system. Stupid cult.
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Ben Reply:
March 22nd, 2012 at 11:44 am
Regards,
Ben
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I was raised in a JW family. Unlike others I had only good experiences with them. Of course you see here and there a person that has a huge problem with a gay person. But that is everywhere. On the streets, everywhere you have people that are ok with it and others who aren’t.
I just have to make a comment to the statements that are being made. That you cannot be homosexual and be a JW. That is absolutely wrong. That statement needs to be corrected.
You can be a practicing JW and be gay. Heterosexual people just need to get over it and accept that you are being born gay and not turn gay at a certain age. That is just ignorance. Hence you cannot turn heterosexual to be a JW.
As a JW you cannot “live” your life in a gay sense. Meaning you cannot have a boyfriend, live in a relationship and not because the congegration doesn’t allow that but because if you want to live your life according to the believes of JW you cannot live a gay life. But that doesn’t mean you cannot be a homosexual and be a practicing JW. You can be homosexual just cannot live a gay lifestyle.
That in the end is each individual person’s own choice. I made my choice that I did not want to be single so I left. But I have lots of friends that decided to stay single and rather practice their believes, yet they are gay.
So just to correct the statement.
Cheers,
Pete
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Andrew Reply:
May 15th, 2012 at 6:42 pm
Thanks for commenting. Correct me if I am wrong, but your point seems to be that an individual can be homosexual and a Jehovah’s Witness, just not living an active homosexual life. You are, of course, right.
I think the problem is that, as you say, people are born gay and it isn’t a choice. That’s what I said in my article. Your friends might decide to be celibate and live a life as a Jehovah’s Witness, but that doesn’t make it right – they are being condemned for how they were born. They are accepting that there is something wrong with them, that they are not normal, which is a disgusting thing for the Organization to put them through.
It’s as if the Jehovah’s Witnesses said that some people have black skin but as long as they live their life shunning the African American culture, then they are okay in god’s eyes. Same principle applies with homosexuality, and in my opinion your friends shouldn’t want to worship a deity who demands such a thing – you are born in sin, yet commanded to be perfect?
As you said, it is their individual choice how their life is led, but I personally don’t understand why they’d want to be servile and deny themselves the happiness that every human is entitled to. I think it’s a shame.
Andrew
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EveH Reply:
December 2nd, 2012 at 3:34 am
Or do you think that God referred to only the act of not being allowed to “lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman” not the inclination? But in that case it would be unrighteous again since gay people should live their lives alone. OF course, this question only makes sense if we accept that God IS righteous, which I do.
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Andrew Reply:
December 2nd, 2012 at 10:39 am
There you go. You’ve just worked out that god actually isn’t righteous. He’d be cruel to forbid something which we know as fact is not a choice.
It’s far more likely that the people who wrote the bible held morals that are 2000 years old and we have since worked out better morals. Perhaps you also think slavery is cruel, in which case you’d again be disagreeing with God and Jesus who both condoned it. The point here is that you have decided for yourself, against what the bible says, what is moral and what is not so even if god existed (which I don’t think he does) you don’t need him as he is not as moral as you. If he existed, why would you want to worship such a cruel being?
Food for thought.
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cOURT Reply:
March 17th, 2013 at 6:23 pm
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Thanks for your comment. I agree with what you say. That is why I left, because I did want to find a partner and be happy. Since I can remember I have always wanted to get married at some point and have a family, hence I stepped out at the age of 18. I cannot say I have been always happy, as you know the gay scene can be somewhat overwhelming as not everyone out there is out for a partner but more for a partner for a moment
But I understand where you are coming from. But don’t hold it against the people. This is the believe of the JW. And it’s not that someone in the congegration tells them, this is what we believe and we as the organization want you to live that way. JW are one of the few religions that live their lives strictly after what the bible says. Unlike many other religions who say they do but in fact their members still do whatever they want. Hence JW also do not tolerate people that have intercourse before marriage, as this also is a no go in the bible. Other religions just judge homosexuals but forget that they bible has a lot of rules for heterosexuals as well that they do not follow. But they overlook that and just make propaganda against gay people.
JW make it easy. They only say to be a JW you have to live your life after what the bible says. And since the bible does not support gay relationships, they do not tolerate someone being a part of the congegration and willingly braking the rules of the bible. They also part themselves of people that commit adultry, that are criminal, etc.. And it’s not like they hunt you down to be a part of them. The elders tell you, if you want to live your life the way you want it step out and leave, it’s up to you.
So I understand you do not tolerate a religion that lives their lives strictly after what the bible says, but don’t judge them. The judgement would have to go against the men that wrote the bible. JW just believe that the bible is their complete guide to life. You and I do not agree with everything the bible says as we do believe that God still loves us no matter how we are born as were creating in his view. And we do believe that God is love and he judges people not for their sexual orientation but by how they live their lives. God sees the good in all of us.
I made the choice to not live by the rules of the bible. I do believe in God and I believe that he loves me no matter what. And if I cannot live out my lifestyle and be part of a religion then I choose not to be part of them.
But I still respect my friends for making their choice. And I hate other straight folks that judge them as they do not understand that they have a way bigger fight everyday than them. They do not only have to fight Satan on a daily basis like everyone else, but they also have to fight their own temptations and for that they should be respected.
You and I might think that they are depriving themselves from being happy with another partner. But their choice was to be happy only with God and themselves. That is their choice and we shouldn’t judge them for that. We might disagree with them. But not judge. They are all still talking to me. I think the point that some people make that the congegration turns their back on people that leave is one thing.
The congegration cannot tell you whom you can have contact to and whom you can’t. That is your own choice. They might tell you that its not good to be in contact with someone that does not live by the same rules as they do but they have no legal right you keep you from talking to that person.
Like many other religions there are always people that are fanatics and people that are more relaxed. I am originally from Germany and in Germany its way less strict than in some cases here in the US. I still have contact to all my friends on a daily basis.
That’s why I always say you cannot judge a whole religion for actions individuals take. I have nothing but good experiences with them. And even though I choose to live my life differently, I still respect them a great deal.
Pete
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Andrew Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
As for the fact that JWs follow the bible, there are two main issues I take with that line of discussion. First off, so what if something is in the bible – it doesn’t make it right. Even Jesus in the bible condoned slavery, but that doesn’t make it right. I doubt you think slavery is a good thing either. There are many examples of principles or rules in the bible that are immoral and plain wrong. Secondly, the JWs do not follow what the bible says – take for example that the bible says that no one can know the day that the great tribulation will come, and that those saying they know are false prophets whom god hates. Jehovah’s Witnesses have made dozens of predictions about this throughout their history. 1914, 1975, to name just two. Even now they say that the last days will end before the ‘generation’ has passed away. All predictions that go against bible teaching. There are DOZENS of other examples of JWs not following certain things in the bible, or twisting them to their liking.
I can judge a whole religion when it is the teachings of that religion that directly influence the behaviour of it’s followers. No individual Jehovah’s Witness would let their child die, for example, instead of give them blood, unless DIRECTLY taught by the religion’s leaders. For a good person to do something bad, that takes religion.
Finally, I just want to clarify that I do not believe in god. Until someone provides evidence for the existence of god, I will not believe he exists, in the same way you will probably not believe in fairies until someone presents evidence for that.
Andrew
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I have had so many positive and negative experiences growing up a JW. I spent my life mostly trying to understand why was I born this way and yet taught that what I felt was wrong. I thought I could resist my whole life and got baptized at 17. Way to young as I think back.
I’ve dealt with soo much the past 3 years in the organization. I finally moved out of my parents house and as I switched halls stopped attending cold turkey. I’ve now been dating a man I’m in love with for 10 months. I am now thinking of how Im going to tell my parents, as I have a large family that is all jws.
It’s just so comforting to read experiences of others. I thought I was alone for so long.
D
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Andrew Reply:
August 15th, 2012 at 8:59 pm
Glad you liked my article. You aren’t alone at all, no! Be sure to join the JWB community on Facebook if you haven’t already done so. And feel free to email us (andrew AT jehovahswitnessblog.com) if you need to chat, get advice or support.That’s one reason we’re here and created this site in the first place.
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My best friend who was a JW, faced some harsh ridicule by his own family. He was told he “had a wicked spirit”, or “Satan”. He had all the scriptures that are believed to condemn him for what he feels, thrown in his face… However what is in those scriptures was not what he was feeling. He was shunned, brought before the elders who gave him the typical rubbish talk about changing. They wouldn’t even let him express what’s going on in his own heart, and couldn’t answer any of his questions. This treatment of my friend, made me no longer want to call myself a JW. I didn’t stop having faith, like becoming all atheist, nor did my friend; we just knew these guys, like in other denominations were wrong. It also made me do some serious research on homosexuality, and especially how it was viewed in the ancient world- and we both learned some very interesting things.
In all in the bible that condemns sexual acts between men, and how it was talked about… Didn’t mirror my friend, nor did it mirror all of the men we’ve met in our research, who were just like him. The condemnation did however mirror everything about mainstream gay culture- which is something men like my friend, detest, and keep away from; because they find it degrading, disgusting, depressing, and disrespectful.
The most popular and heaviest one of all thrown at them is the “Man shall not lie with man as he would womankind”. “To lie with”, is an archaic (primitive) word for intercourse (keyword inter). Intercourse is when one person (male), places their genitals inside of another person, (naturally female) which would also be penetrative sex. Going to use the Greeks since its most popular, but it was interesting to learn, other cultures felt the same way about male/male relationships- and even before they knew the Hebrew god.
The Athenians (not ALL of them), practiced pederasty- in which an older male 30+, would take a boy, and although help him grow sharing wisdom, also used him for sex- “until the boy began to grow hair on his face”. Which means these boys, had to be really young, and when they began to become men, they were no longer seen as “desirable”. The Spartans did not like this, feeling it “feminized” young boys, robbing them of their manhood/masculinity; and they were right. These boys who have now become men, were not their own men- and had become used to being kept by other men. They’d end up becoming slaves, or temple prostitutes- and continue being kept and used by men- and were NOT seen or thought of as men. The Spartans often called Athenians “boy lovers” because of this.
The Spartan form of pederasty, was a boy who was around age 15-18, with another male who was 19-30; being taken under the wing of the man, to learn to be a man. This did not happen with every male (even in Athens), this was something done to males who had no fathers or older brothers- and quite often he was taught how to fight, but also learn the rules of society, to which if he behaved in ill manner, the man he was under- would be the one who’d face the trouble.
The intent was not for sex, though if the boy was in fact homosexual, (there was no word for such a thing in the old world), and admired the man a lot- that would probably happen as their bond grew. However it was the boy who chose the elder male, not the elder male choosing the boy. If the elder male was already mentoring a younger male, or in fact was in a romantic relationship with another male- he would refuse the boy, as it would not be seen as proper to accept him, in any way.
Anal sex with men, was not seen as ideal. It did happen of course, however it was considered illegal in many cases, and sometimes even punished- it wasn’t as accepted as people today think. Socrates, who had penetrated many boys, was punished for “corrupting the minds of male youth”. Anal sex was also shown in anything depicting pornography, which again was no depiction of ideal male love/relationship.
Two men who truly loved each other, respected each other’s masculinity, manhood, warrior-hood/brotherhood (if they were soldiers/warriors/fighters), and viewed each other as equals- would never want the other male, or themselves to take on the role of a female, slave, or defeated enemy to be further humiliated (some used penetration to humiliate defeated enemies, Vikings were big on this). Such a thing was seen as unequal, disrespectful, dirty, degrading, unnatural, not an act of love (to do that to another man). Fidelity/loyalty were also big, so when two men were in fact involved- they did not share themselves with other men, you remained with that one man until death.
Regardless of one’s sexuality, and especially if you were of importance- it was expected you take a wife, and produce children, to carry on your line, care for you in old age, and produce a citizen for the state (not everyone did though), and of course its much different in today’s world. So, were these guy’s intimate with each other? Yes they were, its not normal for a man to reject and suppress those feelings, the sex they had was non penetrative.
Interestingly, the men I met who are like my friend- follow the ideal way as it was seen in the ancient world. However they face a lot of ridicule from gay men, who follow the mainstream gay lifestyle/practices.
In the end, its what is in the heart that matters; as only god knows the true heart of someone. The ridicule, rejection, shunning, further making these guys feel unwanted, doomed, alone, and hated- does not remind me of anything Jehovah or Christ would be about- and certainly not someone would ‘choose”. That’s one of the things that makes these guys very angry, when they are told they chose to be gay. Yet at the same time these men, refuse to run about being promiscuous. So yeah JW can be just as ridiculous as those in other denominations.
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Steve Reply:
March 18th, 2013 at 3:24 pm
I would like to know the source of your information on this. I’ve read everything written about Socrates and have never heard him accused of having “penetrated many boys.” In fact, in one dialogue he is criticized for failing to engage in homosexuality.
The charge of having “corrupted the youth” was based on his teaching them to use their minds and take a skeptical approach to the existence of the gods. It had nothing to do with pederasty (which would not have been seen as corrupting in ancient Greek culture.)
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The men who were forced into it, do so because if they were abused as children, and especially if they were in their teens; question their sexuality, and masculinity, as they become older- and often don’t get the right help, because they are too ashamed to speak out. So they either re-enact their abuse by allowing other men to use them for sex, or they sadly molest children themselves, which makes them feel as if they have some sort of control in their life. Some child molesters of course do it, because they are attracted to the innocence of the child, which is very perverted, and I thought it was pathetic that an Awake magazine I believe in 1995, compared homosexuals, to child molesters.
Some men who become accustomed to it, do so in situations where there are no women, and either they use a man for sex, or are used themselves. This is usually in the prison environment, and these men continue this out of prison as well. It can also happen within the military. In my research I spoke with a Russian man, who remembers being raped, constantly, along with other new recruits, by higher ups. They’d have photos taken, and or video taped, constantly being threatened it would be shown to their families.
The men who choose it, always start out with having a curiosity- which is a normal feeling some guys may have. Some never act on it, and never think of it again. Some men will act on it, and learn it is not for them, so they never do nor think of it again. Some will act on it and enjoy it, but still enjoy sex with women- which would classify them as “bisexual”. Some act on it, and enjoy it. Its the act of doing something taboo, rebellious, and forbidden they enjoy- along with the physical pleasure, and identify themselves as gay- and begin emulating what they believe to be gay behavior, or lifestyle… A lot of these guys will get into some extremely perverse things. There is also a lot of racism, ageism, disposable attitudes towards many of the men they bed, lies, drugs, promiscuity higher than that of heterosexual promiscuity- which is why the gay community has a higher rate of those with STDs/AIDS.
There’s a predatory behavior among these guys, who also consider it a badge of honor to “seduce a heterosexual male”. Highly superficial, and worshiping men deemed as “most desirable”, and to some pretty unhealthy ends. Very materialistic, unfaithfulness, confusing love with lust, hate, vindictiveness, callousness- which is also considered to be “cool”, feminizing of males, emulating male/female dynamic, depression when one is no longer seen as “desirable”, and disappointment, when one doesn’t find or get something, that looks like what they saw in a pornography.
Some of these men of this group, did things around. I’ve talked with many who no longer wanted to live this lifestyle, talked a lot about finding god, and wanting to live a clean life. Both the men who choose it, and are forced into it, remind me of what is condemned in the bible, and it can be corrected, if that person first wants to change, and then is given the proper help and support, because what they’re doing has nothing to do with love, and companionship- which is what I see with guys who are born with it. For them its all about sex and the lifestyle.
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Something does not add up.
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Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 9:42 am
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Andrew Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 6:26 pm
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cOURT Reply:
March 17th, 2013 at 6:55 pm
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cOURT Reply:
March 17th, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Matt Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 9:43 am
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Andrew Reply:
October 15th, 2012 at 6:27 pm
Do you even realise how silly you sound?
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I think Jehovas Witnesses in the US are very different from them in Europe. I am gay and grew up in a very strict household. My father once told me, if I ever came out to him he would kick me out of the house and never speak to me again.
That being said here a little of my story:
I was raised believing being gay was a sin, as also JWs in Europe preach the same thing. And yes I can see there are a lot of people that are being homophobic as they do not understand people that are gay. But that can be said for every religion not only JWs. I say religion as I personally don’t believe it’s a cult. When I turned 21 I came to the US for a summer and saw here in South Florida that being gay was as normal as anything else and that helped me a lot in building my self esteem. So when I returned to Europe I confronted the Elders and told them I wanted to leave as I was gay. They let me go no problems whatsoever, of course they tried talking to me, but they didn;t make a big deal out of it like some people write on here.
My friends still talk to me till this day. JWs in Europe cannot “Forbid” you to have contact to people that leave the congegration. The Watchtower society marily states its better for people in the religion not to have contact to people that leave so they would not follow them out ot the religion. But they cannot legally “Forbid” you contact. That is left with every persons own decision. So why people here say that you are not allowed to talk to them is kinda twisted. Maybe here in the US, but in Europe it is still your own decision in the end. And you don’t get kicked out if you decide to keep talking to people that leave.
I was never treated bad by any JWs. I just left because their believes do not match with mine. But that goes for every religion out there who’s followers try to live by the Bible’s rules. The bible does not support a gay lifestyle, so that means that religion is not for me, that’s all, no need for me to judge them.
Actually my friend told me that in one of the last speaches in the congegration members stated that homosexuality is not a choice but you are born that way. Since the bible does not support such a lifestyle gay people are being forced to fight a big fight everyday to not live out their sexuality. And gay people that choose not to act on their sexuality are actually being highly respected in that congegration as people understand they have a huge fight everyday.
So all in all I am gay and I was raised as a JW, left the congegration when I was 21, but never had any negative experiences like many on here. So for me I feel bad for you that the members in your congegrations are so narrow minded. But you cannot judge the religion for it. Every religion has its good and bad members. People that are being radical are never good no matter what religion they belong to. True JWs hate the sin, but they do not hate the person. I can personally say that as I have never been treated with hate by any JW.
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Andrew Reply:
October 26th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Thanks for your comment. I live in Europe, and always have. I’ll be frank with you – I don’t believe you. That, or you had a completely unique experience. You are mistaken that JWs in Europe are so different from the US counterparts.
You’ve also missed the point that you shouldn’t have to suppress your sexual preference just because JWs or the bible says you should.
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Peter Reply:
October 26th, 2012 at 7:48 pm
Please don’t take my story as ignorance to all the negative stories on here. I actually feel bad that so many had to go through so much hardship. It sadeness me. I just wanted to share that not all JW are like the ones that were discribed in the other stories. My experience might be unique but I do not believe so as I believe there are good and bad people out there.
The only hardship with me being gay I ever had was in highschool with other students, but never with JWs.
At the end of it all I believe in God, but I believe God is “Love” and love does not hate, and like it was stated before we were all born this way and since we all have been created in the image of the creator I do not believe that he judges us for being gay, that is a man made thing. Lets also never forget that the bible might have been inspired by God, but still was written by mortal heterosexual men with their own believes.
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David Reply:
October 27th, 2012 at 3:19 am
If so, when you came to South Florida did you engage in anything that would have warranted disfellowshipping? If so, did you tell the elders that as you left?
One of the issues I have with the religion, if you are not baptized you can walk away, do what you choose and people can still have contact with you. However if you are disfellowshipped, people aren’t allowed and can and will be disciplined for doing so.
If someone isn’t baptized, they are free to leave and still associate. (It’s frowned upon but not liable for discipline)
I’m thinking the US and Europe are similar, you may not have had the exact same circumstances others on here have had, and therefore had a different outcome.
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cOURT Reply:
March 17th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
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This morning 2 J-W’s people came to my door and I asked them a simple question
“What happens to Homosexual people in your congregation?” (I happen to be one, They happened to be apart of a religion, I was curious.)
Well they didn’t answer, handed me some literature, then left.
I read the literature but it… Didn’t answer Much. Anyway shortly after reading it I decided to turn to Google to find an answer and came across this article, and just wanted to thank you for writing it.
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Andrew Reply:
January 21st, 2013 at 1:33 pm
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My lease was ending and I decided to move in with my bf. I was trying to do this vet smoothly but we all know how nosey and question ridden jw mothers are.
So I finally came out to my mother and told her my plans. Her initial reaction was “youre my son, I’m you’re mother, I love you and nothing will change that”
Two days later I get a long email loaded with articles and bible verses about homosexuality.
Two days after that I get a long email written from her. “You’re going to kill your grandmother/ don’t do this, you’re signing your death slip/ all we’ve done for you and this is how you repay us/ you’re going to hurt the family so much/”ext.
I read this email, all I read is “guilt trip/ guilt trip/ guilt trip”. Never once did she ask how my struggle has been, or how hiding this for 30+ years has been for me. It’s only about what makes it easy for her and my father and the rest of the family.
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Thanks so much
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My husband and I are both baptised JWs. We have 4 children and have raised them as JWs. Our older 2 (son 25 and daughter 23) are married and both pioneer and son is ministerial servant. Our younger 2 (14 and 17) both have ASD and my youngest and eldest have type 1 diabetes. Neither of my younger boys are baptised JWs nor do they attend the meetings. I became a JW aged 20 and I’m now 50, married to a JW for 25 years.
When j*** said he was gay I stopped going to the meetings because I couldn’t parent him whilst thinking that he was ‘wicked’. Long story short- whilst my husband still goes to meetings I do not. My eldest ( mini servant) has just given his first full public talk so I went to listen to it to support him. The families went out for a meal afterwards to celebrate. We were not invited! My pioneering daughter married a JW who has declared that he hates my younger sons. He is a fool and doesn’t understand that we have to parent them differently as they have special ASD needs. I have persuaded my husband to allow my sons bf to stay overnight in our home ( in seperate beds) but he’s not comfortable with it. Initially our son and his bf had to stay in hotels overnight as his bf lives 100 miles away and doesnt drive. It was costing them £100 to see each other each weekend. Our 2 older children treat us like we are marked as bad associates. It stinks! Their behaviour towards us has done more damage than the news that j*** is gay. I won’t go bk to being a JW whilst my son needs my support and he will probably need that all of his life. The whole disfellowshipping thing is cruel and I am totally opposed to it Jehovah wants us to serve him willingly not because we are afraid of being df’d. I have lost my faith and have invested 30 years into something that was a blessing but has now become a curse. I have lost my friends, my family and all I’m guilty of is supporting my autistic gay son. I’m not df’d but I may as well be. It is very sad
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